Status of Women Committee on March 31st, 2010

[Wendy Cukier]

Exactly. The broader cultural context has a huge impact. Gender roles have a huge impact on the aspirations of little girls from an early age. In one study of 14-year-olds--it was in the U.S., but it could have been here--little girls were asked what they would like to be: President of the United States, president of a university, head of a corporation, or personal assistant to a celebrity.

[An hon. member]

Oh, no.

[Wendy Cukier]

The Barbie doll and Britney Spears influences are pervasive. I say that because there's a huge difference between North American culture and many other cultures in these gender roles. In the report, I refer to places like some eastern European countries and countries in the Far East where you don't see the gender splits. It's culture.

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Okay.

Mr. LeBlond.

[Isidore LeBlond]

Mine's a completely different background. I grew up exposed to construction all my life. I wanted to be an architect. I went to school. In high school, in the past, we had these things called shops, and it was the shop teacher who guided me down a certain path. Look around today: those shops have disappeared from our educational system. Sally or George would have had access to those shops. They are gone from the Canadian system. It's unfortunate.

[Yaroslaw Zajac]

If I may, Madam Chair, I'll support and build up the theme that Wendy just put forward, and that is the theme of influencers.

With the rise of such television programs as CSI, where do you think a majority of applications for community college programs are? People have oversubscribed in a major way to those crime scene types of programs that are being offered within the community colleges system.

Second, the Government of Canada over the last three or four years has spent many dollars to promote apprenticeships in Canada. Apprenticeships were for many years the hot button for the Government of Canada. If you look at the examples that were given, if you look at the television commercials that were put forward, the effect is there. The effect is that a lot of--most, in fact--trade programs within community colleges are oversubscribed, and there is a phenomenal waiting list.

Yet, again on the theme of influencers, if you look at where we don't provide the influencers.... And I would suggest influencers, as Wendy has said, are role models, and as Isidore has said, are family. I would also suggest that they are counsellors and teachers. All of these influencers need to be influenced. That, I would suggest, is a valuable conclusion that this committee may wish to address.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

I think we've just finished our seven minutes. It was a very good round.

Monsieur Desnoyers.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome, everyone.

I have to admit that we have not yet looked closely at the subject your presentations are talking about today.

First, Mr. LeBlond, how is your federation organized in Quebec? Does it represent the people you are talking about?

[Isidore LeBlond]

It represents about 4,000 technologists in applied sciences and technology. It is the Ordre des technologues professionnels du Québec.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You said that it includes technicians and technologists. I imagine it covers both components.

[Isidore LeBlond]

That's right.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

In the private sector, be it the aerospace industry, the auto industry or other major industries, there will be growing numbers of white collar workers and declining numbers of blue collar workers. These are technicians now. I am thinking more specifically of the aerospace industry, about 24.4% of which, as your report shows, Ms. Cukier, is comprised of woman.

This is an industry of the future, as we know. The federal government has injected over $13 billion into military equipment: planes, engines, etc. Using these and other programs, could the federal government do more to encourage women to enter these programs?

I would like to hear from Ms. Cukier first, and then I would like to hear from Mr. Leblond.

[Wendy Cukier]

Thank you for the question.

I think there's a great deal that the government can do from an educational point of view in terms of supporting innovative programs. The thing that would have the most profound and immediate effect would be for the government to use its influence, its procurement and communications policies, to promote this.

For example, in the United States, when there was a lot of emphasis on affirmative action, there were very clear targets and questions in procurement policies. In theory the federal contractors program has reporting requirements, but I can tell you from the study that we have done on the aerospace industry, the defence industry, and many other sectors that depend very heavily on government money that these sectors don't track, report, promote, or invest in women. The government has tremendous influence in using its buying power to incent behaviours that will make this a higher priority.

[Isidore LeBlond]

We hope that our "GoTechgirl" program will get federal government support so it has support in the secondary schools, especially in secondary 1, 2 and 3 in Quebec and across Canada. We have to promote careers so that young people and parents know there are job opportunities for them if they are well educated, and that this requires two or three years of training at community college or cégep.

We also hope the government supports the co-op programs, and provides more support for employers who would like to give people a chance to participate in them. To do that, they need a little support. This program is national.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Would you be more in favour of establishing more specific schools? For example, in the aerospace industry, technicians are trained at cégeps. That kind of school, rather than a large school where everyone is mixed in together, would it encourage women to enter the field?

[Wendy Cukier]

I can say that we had a program in Ontario a few years ago called “Double the Pipeline”. It created more space in the universities and colleges for engineers and technologists, but they couldn't fill the spaces. There's no question that there are ways to teach, ways to mainstream technology, so that all students are exposed to technology and all students are taught math and science in ways that make sense to them. There is a lot of experience around experimenting with those kinds of pedagogies.

While making more programs available at the CEGEP and university level might be helpful and would make us happy, I would argue that the real issues are earlier in the pipeline, on the one hand, and among the employers, because you can put people through the programs, but if they end up with employers who are not supportive of women or with employers who don't deliberately attract women, then you're not addressing the problem.

I think that's part of the solution, but again I'd say, “Think pipeline”. Think about expanding the pipeline and plugging its leaks.

[Yaroslaw Zajac]

I find myself supporting Wendy all the time, and that's good.

Very often an individual making a decision about a career path in technology--let's take engineers--who decides to become a resource engineer working within the resource industry will suddenly find that the resource industry is absolutely dead. Now the person has no prospects for employment, and suddenly the decision that the young man or lady made four years ago is a wasted decision.

Therefore, as Wendy has suggested, a broad-based approach is vitally important. I'm going back to a theme that I've said before, which is that the need to influence the people who provide information to young people in Canada is very important. The other--

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

We were just talking about the people who have influence, like the government, companies, family. Right now, however, with a significant and urgent need in those industries, we know that we have a lot of women in their thirties who have unfortunately lost their jobs because of the crisis, and who want to change directions. How could we help them get back into the labour market?

Ms. Cukier and then Ms. Hellemans could answer that question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We're going to have to make your answers very short, because we're over time.

[Wendy Cukier]

There should be multiple pathways for exactly the point that you raise.

[Dr. Kim Hellemans]

I agree.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Okay, thank you very much.

Thank you, Monsieur Desnoyers.

For the Conservatives, Madame Boucher.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Good afternoon, everyone. It is very nice to see you. It is interesting to see the image we often have of women, whether it comes from family or from the media. I do a lot of work on the possibility of examining the image of women in society.

I come from a family of police officers and prison directors. I wanted to be an electrician and linewoman. I remember in 1979-1980, at school in Trois-Rivières, I was told I would do secretarial work. I didn't like that and I changed fields.

Certainly governments, whether municipal, provincial or federal, have things they need to do, but the image that is projected of women in those trades, and you talked a lot about women with careers and women technologists, is very rarely seen.

Would you consider it important that we work precisely toward having not just role models, but also women mentors who are able to "sell" these non-traditional careers in a positive way so that people respect women for their abilities and their desire to achieve their dreams?

I would like to know what the men think.

[Isidore LeBlond]

We in fact thought of starting the "GoTechgirl" program. It was for exactly that reason. We produce T-shirts and graphics. It is positive, interesting and creative. Girls need to be in a special club for themselves where they can ask questions and get answers in a situation where they are just among themselves and not in competition with boys.

So we start in grade 7, talking to them about careers and occupations. It has to be positive. The competition works and is for all the people you talked about.

That is why I have 14 different hats in my office. Whether it is architecture or mechanical and electrical work, what is essential is to give the teachers, and most importantly the parents, the information to persuade them, for example, to let their daughters do what they want. If they want to do it, they have to be given the opportunity. It's positive and it is happening.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I remember that at one time we talked here about the Economic Action Plan and it was said that there was no mention of women. I have looked at it, and I can say that isn't true. I have seen that a woman in construction is in fact a woman who is in construction. That really struck me, because now that is being talked about more and more.

It started way back. Unfortunately, or fortunately, now, we are able to push our girls more. I have two daughters, aged 20 and 21. I push them to go into non-traditional occupations, but obviously there are the media, the Britney Spears and company, who give mothers headaches because that is really not what we want our daughters to become.

Do you think mentoring is important? In your fields, do you have reliable, solid mentors who are able to get our girls where they want to go and not where the parents want them to go? Can you go so far as to tell our children that they should follow their dreams and not the ones that have been achieved? Can you tell them to achieve their dreams? Can you go that far?