Status of Women Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2011

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

In those 10 years, in your capacity, have you ever been required to testify in cases of elder abuse?

[Cst Patricia Fleischmann]

No, I want to stress that my role is administrative, not investigative. I am the one person in the service with this particular role.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Can I ask you if, in your 10 years, you have ever been in a position where you've had to investigate instances of abuse or violence against the same person, or perhaps been called to investigate incidents at the same address or residence?

[Cst Patricia Fleischmann]

It's interesting that you should ask that question.

Just this past summer, I had an opportunity to assist one of the downtown Toronto divisions. There was a case of an elderly woman whom neighbours and family members were quite concerned about, and the local division was increasingly getting calls for service to this woman's address and to the local bank where she conducted her banking. They were having some problems, and they asked if I could come out and assist them.

I did go out on that particular morning. Although I was not conducting the investigation, I was certainly there as a resource to assist the officers.

The fraud unit was there as well as the local community relations officer, and after they had an opportunity to speak with the elderly woman as well as her grandson who was the suspect in this particular matter, I did have an occasion to speak with her alone in the back yard, and I questioned her further.

She had considerable reluctance to make any report to police. She was not willing to make a disclosure, even through we had heard repeatedly from family members as well as neighbours, and we believed there was absolutely something going on. As she was a capable person, she had the right to live her life as she saw fit. Capable persons have the right to make their own decisions, and it's in fact sometimes very difficult for us to accept that they also have the right to live at risk.

There was no direct evidence, that we could see, to do anything.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

But you were called, and you have investigated—

[Cst Patricia Fleischmann]

We were called, and I'm happy to report that within two weeks, she did call us and she was in fact make a disclosure, and I believe it was because of our repeated responses.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I noticed in the text of your remarks that you indicated that we need to use the existing legislation appropriately, and you mentioned section 718.2 of the Criminal Code with regard to sentencing being decreased or increased due to certain circumstances, including the age, mental or physical disability, or the vulnerability of the particular person. In your conversation here, you've also mentioned that you've noticed that the sentences are lighter, and that some of that may be due to things not being reported. Interestingly enough, a former witness actually said she was shocked to find out that age was very rarely considered with regard to sentencing.

So when courts fail us, when they fail the victims of elder abuse or other serious crimes, what can we do as a government to make sure the courts actually administer the appropriate sentences to protect those victims of crime? In your opinion what does the government need to do?

[Cst Patricia Fleischmann]

Just as education and training are important for police officers, it's the same for prosecutors, and I believe the same holds true for the judiciary. I don't know if this is in fact happening.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I agree with you, but we all know that courts fail us that a person who commits the exact same crime as another person is sentenced differently. What can the government do to legislate to make sure that the courts are administering the judicial system appropriately? We hear about minimums and mandatory sentencing within the Criminal Code, and sometimes these can have a very broad range.

I'm just wondering about your opinion. You've said in your statement that we need to use existing legislation appropriately, but when courts don't, what can we do?

That's why we're all here.

[Cst Patricia Fleischmann]

That's a tough question and I'm not sure that I can answer it appropriately at this time.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

How do you enforce the courts?

[Cst Patricia Fleischmann]

If the courts are independent bodies, it's very difficult. I don't know that we can do that.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

We need to change the parameters of the Criminal Code to ensure the appropriate sentences are administered to fit the crimes. That would be one way.

Is that correct?

[Cst Patricia Fleischmann]

That's a most interesting suggestion.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I think I've heard that from a number of witnesses. And while I'm not connected to the police, I know others in the police department, and that's an issue for them as well. Two crimes are exactly the same but there are two different judges and they're not sentencing appropriately.

Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time here today.

If I have any time left, I'd like to—

[The Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

You have one minute.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I'm sure I can think of something else.

Ed, do you have a question to share as well?

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Yes, and thank you.

I find your testimony very compelling. When you responded to my colleague that it was an interesting suggestion she made, do you think there should be consistency in applying the tougher sentences for seniors abuse, in your opinion—since this is a personal opinion, as you've indicated in your remarks?

[Cst Patricia Fleischmann]

I've actually never thought about that—

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Seriously?

[Cst Patricia Fleischmann]

—nor have I ever had a conversation about that. I'm not sure how to answer that, quite frankly.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

What does your gut tell you?

[Cst Patricia Fleischmann]

I think we are moving into uncharted territories if we direct that judges shall respond in a certain way.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Here's what's interesting. You indicated that the crime is under-reported. You also indicated that with seniors abuse, we are where we were with domestic abuse in the sixties and the seventies.

[The Chair, NDP, Irene Mathyssen]

We're out of time. Perhaps you will have a chance when we go into our second round.

Mr. Hsu.