Status of Women Committee on April 23rd, 2012

[Commr Robert Paulson]

I did consider that. In fact, I was testing out my new authority as a new commissioner, and I said I wanted 50% admission into Depot. All the experts said that I was nuts because that is not available, and that I was just setting myself up for failure.

I think we have to get there. That's our real, long-term goal. Labour market availability won't support that. Even having increased into the 35%, I had my HR experts looking at me out of the corner of their eye. I agree with you. I think that ultimately we should be hoping for a 50/50 split on intake into the organization. That's what we're going to work toward.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

People would definitely have said the same about women in politics a few years ago, and we've broken those barriers, so I'm very pleased to hear about that ultimate goal, and we hope it would become a reality as soon as possible. I think that's a tone that begins to change the water in the aquarium that you referenced.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

We will now hear from Ms. Young.

You have five minutes.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

Again, I'd like to echo all of my colleagues here to say welcome, and thank you for coming, Commissioner Paulson.

As a person growing up in Vancouver, I, like many of us here, grew up with the notion of respecting and honouring the RCMP for the commitment and service that you've given to Canadians over 100 years of service. Unfortunately, we are bumped up against a situation here that is very troubling and very discouraging to many of us watching this evolve and unfold.

I wanted to ask you, and give you some more time—because I know you ran out of time at the beginning of this—to detail out more for us on what your process for engagement and assessment is, which you outlined at the beginning.

[Commr Robert Paulson]

Thank you.

I'll go back to the rules, or the response to complaints and so on.

What we've had, and what I've come to understand as one of the frailties and the weaknesses of the system, has been this confusion around our harassment policies—which are completely consistent with the Treasury Board's policies and so on—and also our code of conduct, and managers' and supervisors' confusion around how to manage the initial complaint of harassment, for example, because there seems to have been some mistaken belief that it was all to be managed as a conduct matter, as an offence.

As soon as we begin to treat it as an offence, people step back from the problem and go into this very legalistic and protracted adversarial system to try to get to the bottom of what's going on.

We're fixing that. We're combining those two streams, and we're putting the responsibility for leadership and supervision on as low a level as possible, so that front-line supervisors not only are expected but will have the authorities to manage the problem. If they don't—and that's where I've been criticized, perhaps, as being a little heavy-handed in some of my descriptions of what I expect out of my supervisors—if supervisors aren't doing their jobs, then we have to get new supervisors.

That's the accountability and leadership program that we're putting around conduct. It includes harassment and a respectful workplace. That's what we're doing. We're working very closely with the independent review by the CPC, because I think they will provide us with some independent advice as to the scope and nature of the challenge in areas that perhaps we haven't considered already.

They're doing an exhaustive review, and other than giving them all of the information and opening up our books, I'm looking forward to taking advice on that.

As we've talked about, pursuing these legislative and regulatory changes will be absolutely essential to giving life to the idea that, really, the day-to-day conduct management should fall to the lowest level. But when things get to the point where everybody's outraged and people have had enough, we need to be able to fire some people within the framework of a fair and legally sound system, so that we can not only regain the public trust, but protect it.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you, Commissioner Paulson.

In the interest of time, Chair, can you let me know how much time I have left?

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

You have one minute.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

One minute, excellent.

I really wanted to applaud you for taking this very firm and open stance with this very important issue. As a woman and as somebody who expects the highest standard of service and standards from the RCMP, I would hope that you would continue to press forward and to move very quickly on this.

I also wanted to ask you a little bit about your attrition rates, and I was very happy to hear that you are hoping to move towards a 50/50 split within the RCMP. How are you going to do that, given that you're only at 20% now, and you've been working at this for 40 years?

[Commr Robert Paulson]

I think, as one of your colleagues said, you just have to keep pushing. So I've raised it to 35%, and I think if we can achieve 35% for a couple of years, then we can raise it to 40%.

But as Deputy Commissioner Carbonneau, who I've asked to assist me in my analysis of this situation, has told me, you have to be careful. Women don't want to be raised up and put in charge of stuff if they haven't earned it, because of the judgments that attach to that. So it's a slow, baby steps, incremental process, I think. We have to make Canadian women understand the rewards that lie within a career in law enforcement in the RCMP—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you, Mr. Paulson. I must stop you here.

There are about three minutes left for a last round of questions. I will now give the floor to Ms. Freeman.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and I'd like to thank Commissioner Paulson for being here.

You talked a lot about the culture within the RCMP and it goes far beyond sexual harassment and other harassment, there are also attitudes.

What do you do in order to be better prepared? Do your officers receive ongoing training, so as to be able to intervene in cases of family violence on reserves, for instance? Indeed, we know that that is a problem. Aboriginal women are the victims of mistreatment in much larger numbers. They run a much greater risk of being victims of violence or even of being killed by someone close to them. What measures are you taking to change the culture and be able to make progress in these cases?

[Commr Robert Paulson]

Thank you.

In my opinion, this is not a matter of training, as we are already quite advanced in that area. However, in order to change the culture, something else is needed. I think we need leadership, accountability, and we have to show people that the RCMP is not responsible for people. As we say in English,

you're in charge of issues. So when we change the RCMP culture so that people, no matter what their rank, are making principle-based decisions on the merits of the situation and not defending their pips and crowns and their rank by demonstrating to others that they are more powerful or more influential, then we will have changed the culture.

I think absolutely vital to the success of all of these initiatives is to change that mindset around being the boss, because that's a significant weakness.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

In the case of aboriginal women who

subject to more violence,

do you think that hiring more aboriginal people, or minorities that do suffer more violence, would have an effect in terms of changing the culture, changing the way the RCMP—

[Commr Robert Paulson]

There's absolutely no question that having a police force that is reflective of your society is essential.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

What practices are being put in place in order to achieve that?

[Commr Robert Paulson]

We have, for example, a number of initiatives with respect to aboriginals and aboriginal women, where we're trying to overcome the force's previous position of suggesting that if you get hired from northern Manitoba, say, you can't go back to northern Manitoba. So now we are allowing people from communities to be hired and brought right back to their communities, so we're busting through some regulations.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

The committee will end on that. I am so sorry, but your time is up, Ms. Freeman.

Mr. Paulson, thank you very much for having come here today to appear before the committee.

This concludes today's hearing. Our next hearing will take place on Wednesday, April 25, at the same time, and it will be divided into two parts. The first hour from 3:30 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. is somewhat optional. You are not obliged to be present, but I think it will be very interesting. In order to avoid confusion, let me specify that the next meeting will take place at 1 Wellington Street. I look forward to seeing you on Wednesday.

Thank you again, Mr. Paulson, and have a nice evening.

The meeting is adjourned.