Status of Women Committee on May 30th, 2012

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Good afternoon, everyone. I know we haven't all arrived yet, but since we have quorum, we are going to start.

Welcome to the 37th meeting of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. Today we are continuing our study on improving economic prospects for Canadian girls. Something has been added to our agenda: a vote needs to be held in the House. The bell will begin to ring around 5:15 p.m. I suggest we give each group of witnesses 50 minutes. Does that suit everyone? I see that no one objects.

Nancy Southern, president and chief executive officer of ATCO Group, is joining us by videoconference from Calgary, Alberta.

Good afternoon, Ms. Southern.

Also joining us by videoconference is Elyse Allan, president and chief executive officer of GE Canada. She joins us from Mississauga, Ontario.

Welcome to our committee.

This is how it will go: you each have 10 minutes for your presentation, then we will move into questions.

Ms. Southern, you have the floor.

You have ten minutes.

[Nancy Southern, President and Chief Executive Officer, ATCO Group]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Perhaps I will save you some of the time that you're losing due to the vote. I don't think I'll take the full ten minutes, and I look forward to the questions.

Members of the committee, it is a great honour for me to be asked to appear before you on the status of women and specifically on improving economic prospects for Canadian girls. I'd like to commend the government and the parliamentary process for addressing such a worthwhile and all-encompassing subject.

I think it is worthy to recall where we are in Canada in terms of benchmarking our progress on this issue against other OECD nations. The statistics say we are relatively successful on employment equality vis-à-vis our peers, and we have improved somewhat in terms of pay equity, albeit perhaps too slowly for many of us. We are doing better than we were, and I believe with the sense of purpose this committee brings, we will continue to improve our ranking in gender equality.

Key to the task of improving public policy on the status of women is our ability to measure our outcomes. Whether it's government, commerce, the judiciary, constabulary, or education, it is critical that are able to measure fact-based results to make objective decisions and choices regarding our future.

In that vein, my first recommendation to the committee is that we reconsider what information is relevant and important to Canadians. And while I completely understand and agree with the need for efficiency in streamlining the long-form census, I also believe that statistical information is required to determine whether our nation is achieving results from the financial and human implementation of our programs directed toward the disabled, impoverished, gender-biased, and first nations, to name just a pressing few.

No doubt the questions need refinement, but good critical analysis is not possible without the right information. So reinstatement of a modernized census that will provide these data sets is, in my mind, vitally important.

My second recommendation and thought for improving the economic prospects for Canadian girls and women is education. I know that Tracy Redies identified education in an earlier hearing, and I couldn't agree more.

In general and on an equal gender basis, our public school curriculum must continue to innovate and evolve with the dynamic world we live in, and our education system is not keeping up with the geopolitical and economic power shifts that are occurring as we speak.

In order for Canada to retain its position and move up the global competitive scale, education of our most precious resource, our children, is paramount so that our girls and our boys can take advantage of future opportunities.

Included in this upgrading and updating of our curricula should be the way women's and men's roles are portrayed. Just as we have educated the public on the health risks of smoking so the knowledge is ingrained and second nature, so should the systemic stereotypical roles of women be abandoned, and the acknowledgement of women in our society from all walks of life, in all job sectors, should be celebrated. And the way to do this is through our public and private schools, K through 12.

As my third recommendation, I'd like to commend Minister Ambrose's strategic plan and encourage the gender analysis contemplated across all levels of government. We in business, academia, and the judiciary should be motivated to do the same. But in doing so, the analysis needs to be transparent and action should be taken, if warranted, in a meaningful way.

I'm personally very disappointed and disturbed by the case of RCMP Staff Sergeant Donald Ray and the lack of or perceived lack of ability that our government and their agencies have to address gross misconduct. Our inability to take actions that match harmful deeds such as this is a significant setback, not just for women but for our society in general.

This leads me to my final point, and that is that inclusion, empathy, and compassion are fundamental characteristics I believe Canadians aspire to. And I believe the world views these qualities as an important aspect of how we are defined. This country was built on determination, integrity, hard work, courage, and enterprise. Against all odds, we have held a vast nation together. Yes, we have made mistakes, but as evidenced by this committee, we strive to learn from our mistakes and correct them.

We cannot be all things to all people. We cannot tolerate the misuse of the public's trust. Consequences for actions are a fact of life, and laws, regulations, and programs that fail to strive for the highest standards will only serve to harm this great nation. Acceptance of anything less than the very best we can be breeds entitlement and promotes mediocrity.

Having said that, I am a big proponent of the Canadian child tax benefit, but I believe it should be available to those who need it most and on a sliding scale, as was proposed in another hearing earlier. Medium- to low-income households need this benefit, especially single moms. If we could increase the value of this benefit it would solve many budget-pinching and economic hardships faced by these families. It would put the decision-making on how expenditures are made where it belongs: in the household. It would free up money for food, education, shelter, and clothes where it's needed and when.

I am passionate about our country, and I am passionate about providing the very best opportunities for our children, both girls and boys, to ensure a vibrant and sustainable Canada for generations to come.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you very much for your testimony, Ms. Southern.

Ms. Allan, it's your turn. You have 10 minutes.

[Elyse Allan, President and Chief Executive Officer, GE Canada]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It is a great pleasure for me to appear before your committee today on a topic that is so important to the future of Canada.

GE has been established in Canada for over a hundred years. In this country we have over 7,000 employees in businesses that include oil and gas, equipment for power generation and transmission, health care, transportation, and lighting. We operate over ten manufacturing facilities. You may know that GE Capital is one of Canada’s largest non-bank financial institutions.

Across Canada we invest heavily in technology development. Here in Canada and around the world, we employ engineers, computer scientists, medical technicians, and many highly skilled workers and trades. When we look at Canada, we see not only its vast natural resources but the skills of its people. We can be proud of our education system, which according to the OECD PISA report—the program for international student assessment—ranks among the best in the world.

But one of my greatest concerns is the looming skills shortage in Canada. We have remarkable opportunities before us as a nation. Canadians are privileged to live in a country with a bounty of resources that the world needs. But our economy and our social fabric is at risk if we cannot educate and train the people here in Canada that industry needs. While immigration will certainly help, it will not solve the skill shortages we will be facing.

So what has to be done? We certainly need to graduate more students with advanced degrees in science, engineering, and applied technology. We need to encourage young people to also consider the skilled trades. One of the easiest ways to do this is staring us in the face. We need to encourage more girls to go into these disciplines as well as to learn skilled trades. Unfortunately, girls are under-represented in science and technology programs in secondary and post-secondary schools. As the committee knows from its previous work, the supply pipeline for university graduates in science and engineering or for technical colleges often begins early in the elementary school, when children are exposed to and form their opinions about mathematics, science, and about people who might work in manufacturing jobs.

According to the report Women In Science and Engineering in Canada, produced by the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada in 2010, the odds of a female child enrolled in first grade going on to receive a PhD in the sciences or engineering are approximately one in 286. The odds for a boy are one in 167. Today, in an average-sized Canadian elementary school, only one child will go on to receive that PhD, and it is likely to be a boy. By secondary school, girls report lower levels of confidence in their ability to solve specific mathematical problems, lower levels of their perceived ability to learn mathematics, and higher levels of anxiety in dealing with mathematics. Girls were also less likely to believe that mathematics will be useful for their future employment and education and they were also more likely to report lower levels of interest and enjoyment in mathematics.

Science and engineering disciplines rank near the bottom as a discipline of choice for women as compared to men. While women outnumber men in most non-science disciplines at university, the ratio drops off dramatically for the major science-based disciplines, and it is only above men by 1% for the life sciences. In any technical colleges, the representation of young women learning skills is actually no better.

I would like to make three recommendations on how to address the gender gap specifically in an area I think is very important to our country and our country's future, which is sciences, engineering, and the trades. The first recommendation is to build more partnerships between industry and schools. Industry needs to do more to build partnerships with schools so that girls can better understand how studying science, engineering, and trades will lead to higher-paying jobs. One way of doing this is through collaborative alliances so that girls know about the many ways in which scientific work improves our well-being here in Canada and globally.

For several years now GE has helped to fund Actua, a national science education outreach organization. Their science, engineering, and technology education outreach, programmed for Canadian youth, including their national girls program, has been a terrific association for us and for what they do.

We have seen first-hand the benefits of working with girls at a young age. We know from our own employees’ direct experiences as mentors to these girls that given the opportunity to thrive in a positive, supportive environment, such as what Actua has designed, girls will rise to the challenge.

Few girls actually have the opportunity to meet with female scientists and engineers in industry who demystify their work, make their career choices accessible to girls, and inspire them to stay in school and learn. Actua is making excellent progress in changing this. We strongly recommend that the federal government consider ways to support programs such as those offered by Actua, which will inspire girls to achieve their full potential in science and technology.

We in business, of course, need to show girls what the opportunities are for skilled trades people in our plants, factories, and businesses. GE plants, producing aircraft engine parts, water treatment equipment, and smart grids all right here in Canada, are among the most modern in the world. These facilities have robotics and computerized machinery. They're creating a different environment and skill set from our old-fashioned views of what these industries used to look like.

Why shouldn’t girls consider a career in sciences, engineering, or skilled trades? They need to know what these contemporary opportunities look and feel like, and the opportunities they hold.

Another recommendation is around remote communities. In January 2011 we launched a partnership with the Canadian Chamber of Commerce to focus on Canada’s remote communities through a business lens. As the committee knows, remote communities are on the front line of resource development, but frequently the people living in remote communities cannot participate in this development for want of skills, training, and basic infrastructure.

Through 11 cross-country round tables and an online survey, we heard from over 500 business stakeholders. Issues raised by business operators in remote communities included current and future skills shortages. It was noted that along with a shortage of labour there is also a significant high school drop-out rate. For instance, in Nunavut barely 25% of youth actually graduate high school.

Over the next decade, 400,000 aboriginal Canadians will reach working age. It is imperative to improve graduation rates to help Canada develop a highly skilled home-grown workforce. Special attention must be paid to the graduation rates of girls and also their advancement in science, technology, math, and the trades.

We support the recommendation made by a number of organizations for the federal government funding for first nations schools to be equal to that of provincial funding levels. Mentorships with business where girls can connect with women in science and technology are also beneficial during high school.

Additionally, girls in remote communities who want to pursue post-secondary education must often leave home to do so. This can be costly and stressful, a big disincentive. Supporting community and post-secondary programs that support girls in their transition away from home, including provisions for child care, we believe is well recommended.

In closing, my third recommendation is building a national science strategy that targets science education in the crucial K through 12 years. There is a great deal of skepticism about the usefulness of developing sometimes national strategies for every problem Canada is facing. I am aware that too often strategies are little more than pious hopes, but the current federal science and technology strategy is a very good start. It has useful recommendations on how business and government-funded research institutions can better collaborate to drive innovation in our economy and workforce. Part of the strategy is to create a culture of science and technology in Canada.

As a country we can do more to encourage children, and especially girls, to study science and math in the crucial K through 12 years. The provinces will have a lead role here, but federal support for post-secondary education can also help out. For example, we should improve the linkages between universities and technical schools and high schools.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I will have to stop you here, Ms. Allan. Your time is up, unfortunately. Thank you very much for your testimony.

We will now start the period of questions.

[Elyse Allan]

Great, thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Ms. O'Neill Gordon, you have seven minutes.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, I want to thank Nancy and Elyse for joining us this afternoon. It certainly was a very interesting presentation, and one that had lots of information for all of us.

I was especially interested in the four points that Nancy put out first for us to consider. All of them certainly carry a lot of weight. Being a former teacher, I want to say how very much I too support your words on the need for education. The part of education on this matter starts not only in the school system and the education system but starts immediately at home, because we have seen in other studies we've done that sometimes by the time girls get to grades two or three they've already had their minds made up on what they should be and that these other ways of working are not meant for them. They've had their minds already made up for a girl type of job.

I want to say that it's those years of schooling, in the early years, that this kind of education, if it's not already done in the home, has to form some focus on those kinds of teachings. So it is very important. It's not only important for the girls, but it's important for boys and girls as well, because they learn much from what they see and hear from their surroundings in those years.

As you also know, the committee's study is on prospects for Canadian girls with regard to economic prosperity, economic participation, and economic leadership, and what changes can be made by Status of Women Canada in its approach to improving them. But at the same time, we also heard from a witness about the importance of having mentors for girls. Young adults or teenagers may have more of an impact on young girls than mentoring of them by older women. Does any of your experience or work support this idea?

That question is for Nancy.

[Nancy Southern]

Thank you very much.

I think mentorship is a vitally important aspect of developing self-esteem and confidence and also in helping to plan career paths for young women. The problem is, if we talk about what you were expressing, that the early stages of development for young women, for young people, is so critical, and as we've seen in so many studies it's very difficult to break a cycle. If you have an impoverished mother with a relatively low education, then there isn't really a role model for the young girl to aspire to. So I think that the whole aspect of mentoring has to begin very early on. In my mind, it's part of the education process.

I don't think you can remove men or boys from the equation. I struggle very much with that. Many of our businesses are heavily laden with engineers, and while we're seeing enrolment increase substantially for women in engineering programs across the country, the mentality in our own companies, while it's unspoken, is that it is a man's world, and the job is for the boys in that club.

I'm really struggling with how we actually break that. The only thing I can come up with is celebrating at a very early age what women can accomplish and what pride they can take in their accomplishments. And I'm not sure that we really expose our children to those kinds of real-life stories and real-life women, whether they're young, middle, or older. I think we can learn a lot from the heritage of our first nations cultures, where in the matriarchal society oftentimes—I believe Paige said it best—the women set the rules and the men regulated on the rules.

Women need to know that they're strong. They need to know that they have the ability to do whatever they want. They can be carpenters. They can drive big dump trucks. They can be scientists, as Elyse said.

I think this whole thing has to start very early on, but we can't forget that we have to educate the men and the young boys along with this.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you very much.

I notice that you have been the president and CEO for the ATCO Group. Along the way, you've certainly overcome probably a lot of challenges to reach where you are. What challenges did you personally face when you pursued a career in business and became a leader in the field, and how have you overcome those challenges?

I know that along the way you certainly would have had to work on building up your self-esteem and you have probably done a great job of that, but are there are other areas along the way that you had challenges in?

[Nancy Southern]

I am very fortunate to be in the position I'm in. The biggest challenge I had was skepticism—that I wasn't able to do my job and that I wasn't able to lead men in this organization—but I'm a firm believer in situational leadership, whether we're in a family setting, on a job site in the field, or in my position or your position. We each take leadership.... When we have to make decisions, we make our decisions, and that's situational leadership.

I believe that if we're able to demonstrate consistency and integrity, and if we're able to prove we're willing to do what we ask of others, then we as women can be successful and we can gain acceptance.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I'm sorry, Ms. Southern, but I need to interrupt you because Ms. O'Neill Gordon's time is up. Thank you very much.

We now have Ms. Ashton.

You have five minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Ms. Southern and Ms. Allan, for your presentations. I want to thank you for your very genuine combination of recommendations, I believe, but also for connecting that with inspiration, perhaps, from your personal experiences. I think that certainly makes our whole discussion here far more powerful.

Ms. Southern, in your last response you made reference to how difficult it is for girls who grow up in a cycle of poverty. We know for a fact that for children who grow up in poverty, particularly in single-parent households, the chances of their going on to continue to live in poverty and in single-parent households are much higher than not.

Recognizing that obviously the situation of the mothers helps define the future of their daughters in the case of what we're talking about here today, what are your thoughts about some of the ways we could look at breaking that cycle of poverty and ensuring that women who are raising children have the stability—the economic stability—to better provide for their own daughters?

[Nancy Southern]

Is that directed to me, Member Ashton?

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Yes.

[Nancy Southern]

I believe that we can go a long way with my final point, which was about utilizing the Canada child tax benefit so we can actually free up more available income for these people so they can make their own decisions. They may choose to go back to school. They may choose to get a better education. They may choose to provide tutoring and mentoring for their children so that they can try to move out of the circumstances they're in.

I'm a firm believer in putting the decision-making right back in the homes, but obviously having the opportunity to make wise decisions. By restricting people, not by paying people to have additional social support, but actually allowing people to use their own earned money to make decisions for their children.... I think this is very important, and I think it will help us get out of this cycle.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Just to that point, certainly I think what you bring up is very important, but I recognize that in places like Calgary—where I know you're based—in cities across Canada, and actually in some northern areas, the child tax benefit is nowhere near what women need—

[Nancy Southern]

No, exactly—

Ms. Niki Ashton —for money for child care and for raising their children. Would you agree that there's a disconnect or perhaps a need to look at those kinds of real supports, and obviously supports that are in line with our economic reality?

[Nancy Southern]

Yes, I agree. I also should say that I believe that we need to have a much higher tax benefit available to those low-income families and the types of families we're discussing that you brought up.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to move on to Ms. Allan.

Ms. Allan, you spoke of the work of GE and your involvement in northern and remote Canada. I'm one of those women who grew up in northern Canada, and I'm honoured to represent my home region, where I come from. I firmly agree with your assessment of some of the challenges girls face in our parts of the country.

In talking about that, of course, perhaps the most stark inequality is faced by aboriginal girls. Of course that inequality can be seen in terms of educational funding and the kind of imbalance we see when it comes to funding schools on reserve compared to schools off reserve.

Do you think it's important to see adequate funding for education on reserve?

[Elyse Allan]

Yes, and that's why we were recommending that the funding be equal for those schools. A lot of it obviously involves the metrics in place with respect to performance and how the money is being spent, just as we would have in any other location. There are metrics related to good performance and good operations.

I think what you're having now is a transfer of a lot of mothers, in particular—going back to Nancy's comments about women often taking the lead for the family—leaving the reserve, many times with the children, to try to get the children into school systems elsewhere, where they think they can get a better education. That comes with a whole host of other challenges in some of the cities they're moving to. They can't get adequate transitional support, or perhaps the mothers have to leave the young children, boys and girls, in the city, in a new environment, perhaps without the full care they should have, so that the mothers can go back to the reserve to sometimes take care of other children. We had exposure to this in some of the work we did on Premier Stelmach's committee in Alberta.

I think there are a number of challenges in that area. But obviously if the funding went to the schools on the reserves, we wouldn't perhaps be having that challenge in the cities and in those other urban areas.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you.

Ms. Allan, you made reference to the importance of child care. In fact one of our witnesses, who works specifically with women in engineering, said that one of the largest deterrents to ensuring that women stay in the field once they've been educated is the work-family balance and the challenge of finding child care.

Perhaps you know this from your own workplace and the women who work in your sector. Do you believe that supporting affordable and accessible child care across the country, including in rural areas and northern areas, is something we ought to be looking at?

[Elyse Allan]

I think the solution will actually come from everybody playing a role. I think business has a role in terms of a flexible work life and work styles for both men and women. Similarly, I think in communities there are different solutions, and yes, I think there's a role for government. But I think it's not one or the other. I think we actually need multiple programs available, because different people will have different needs. We don't have to provide one solution for everyone, because the fact is, some people will use more and some people will use less.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you, Ms. Allan. I have to interrupt you.

Ms. Ambler now has the floor.

You have seven minutes.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here this afternoon.

Ms. Southern, this is sort of a general question, but it fits in with our study. What are the economic prospects for girls in the business lines your company pursues?