Status of Women Committee on Oct. 25th, 2012

[Ross MacLeod]

Let me answer the first question first. In our view, it is not clear that the amount of harassment changes depending on whether the senior administrator, for example, is a man or a woman. From the results, that is not clear to us.

As to the second question, we feel that the process mentioned in the guidelines will help us a little in dealing with cases more quickly than before. In the past, the old process was difficult to follow. There were a lot of steps. In our opinion, the new approach will be better, in that less time will be needed in order to deal with the complaint.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Now we move to the other side.

Ms. Bateman, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I really appreciate that you've come back, because this is such an important area. I also appreciate how you've laid out the governing pieces of legislation. That's very important for us to understand.

I'm going to ask a couple of things for clarity. First, it's my understanding, and I want to hear if I'm right, that Treasury Board is the employer for all public servants. Do your policies govern all government departments and agencies?

[Ross MacLeod]

It's a somewhat technical question.

This applies to schedules I and IV of the Financial Administration Act, which is what we would commonly call departments and agencies in the government, or what we frequently call the core public administration, so that would be it. It would not apply, for example, to crown corporations, which are further out from Treasury Board. Treasury Board is not their employer, and neither is it the employer for the Canada Revenue Agency, for example.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Right. That is a large group.

[Ross MacLeod]

Correct.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Every department and agency, like PWGSC or the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, would be governed by Treasury Board....

[Ross MacLeod]

Yes, if it falls into one of those.... I think those would. We would have to check, but any normal department or agency would fall into that category.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Okay.

You've laid out the three actual legislative pieces. On the values and ethics, in your comments earlier this morning in response to questions from one of my colleagues, you mentioned that there's a new values and ethics piece.

[Ross MacLeod]

That was the values and ethics code for the public sector, which covers the entire public sector, the whole federal universe. It was introduced on April 2 of this year.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

On April 2 of this year?

[Ross MacLeod]

Correct.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

But values and ethics work was done previous to that as well.

[Ross MacLeod]

Yes. This code replaced the code that had been in place for about eight years.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

What were the substantive changes?

[Ross MacLeod]

We did a number of changes.

We have added a new value, which is excellence, to the public service values. We think it's very important that the public service strive for excellence.

There have been a number of changes to do plain language for more of the expressions, so some of the things haven't changed a lot, but we've made them much easier to understand. We also removed conflict of interest from the old code, which is where it was, in chapter 2, and we did a separate conflict of interest policy, because it has a very complex, technical nature to it.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Okay. Maybe we can have that appended to your comments—the detailed structure and structural changes to that piece—because it's important.

You spoke about the managerial accountability piece for each deputy head under the MAF. You indicated very clearly that the performance pay of each deputy head is linked to their performance, whether it's with regard to sexual harassment or any kind of harassment in the workplace—heaven forbid—and lack of respect, so you have self-interest working for you. That's always a big motivator.

How does that trickle down? How do you see the best practices...? On the authenticity piece, as with everything, there will be some excelling. How do you see that working?

[Ross MacLeod]

The responses to the management accountability framework are very interesting. They come at two levels. One is that when someone sees that affecting their pay at risk, they pay attention. What is somewhat more interesting and powerful is the reputational effect it has on a department and an organization.

We have found that when a deputy head, across the whole management accountability framework, has what we call a “requires attention” or “opportunity for improvement” mark in one of the areas of management, they get on it very quickly, and it works down through the department very quickly. Organizations are set up to deal with it. Work is assigned and the responsible people are held accountable for it. In fact, this is an opinion, but I think that's a more powerful driver than the performance pay.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I actually agree with you, because the reputational piece is enormous. On the authenticity you spoke of for various senior managers, there's always a problem about people just ticking the boxes, whereas those who are leading with authenticity and sincerity.... How do you distill those differences?

[Ross MacLeod]

You see it very—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

A quick answer, please.

[Ross MacLeod]

Yes, absolutely.

You see it very quickly. I run two areas of management of the MAF myself—people management and values and ethics—and they pay incredible attention to it. I often take the call when they're not happy with their results.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That's wonderful. Could you append information—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Ms. Bateman, your time is up.