Evidence of meeting #46 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was departments.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin
I am going to have to stop you there, Ms. Hughes. Your time is up.
Now we move to the other side.
Ms. Young, you have five minutes.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
Thank you for coming back today.
I found it quite interesting what you were saying earlier, and what Ms. James was asking, in that there appear to be a set of policies and legislation scattered over different departments that have relevance to this issue. Would you say that's correct?
9:25 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
The legal frameworks for the government are centrally held, typically, so the legislation related to our employees is mostly under the purview of the President of the Treasury Board, as are all the policies that affect them. There is one exception, which is the Public Service Employment Act. Most of it is under the purview of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Public Service Commission.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
I apologize. I may not have caught this in the previous presentation.
Could you therefore list for me, so that it's clear in my head...because right now it's a little scattered, exactly the legislation...? State what the legislation is, how it flows, and within which departments. Today we heard about this code of ethics and conduct, which was a little new for me. Could you give us that framework so that it's clearer, in my mind anyway, as to how this works and how it all hangs together?
9:25 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
For Treasury Board and deputy ministers, a key piece is the Financial Administration Act, which actually sets out many deputy responsibilities relative to their employees. There is the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act, which allows for the disclosure of wrongdoing and protection of employees who do that, a protection from reprisal, for example. The Canada Labour Code requires the government, as an employer, to provide for a safe and healthy workplace for employees.
Those are the three main pieces of legislation that I can think of.
The values and ethics code is a stand-alone instrument that is a condition of employment, subject to the various requirements of those laws, which applies to the whole public sector, for example. It's the kind of special instrument that's quite unique in that respect.
Then there are the harassment policy and directives that are subsidiary to the other legal authorities that I described above, but particularly the Financial Administration Act.
Other Treasury Board policies relating to our employees generally follow from those authorities, depending on the specific nature of the policy. So they do cascade down from the original legislation. The code is a bit of an exception because it's a unique instrument; then the rest of the policies have to derive from some legal instrument. Most of them—the FAA, the Canada Labour Code, and so on—would relate to the ones having to do with the area that you're investigating.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
Is it fair to say, then, that in the public service these acts, these codes, these policies, are shared, and everybody within the different layers of supervisory capacity and responsibility have been assigned different levels of this? Can it go from deputy minister, as Ms. Fry was saying earlier, down to the managerial level, down to the co-worker level even, because they have to have policies posted in the workplace, etc., so that people become aware and are familiar with these different policies and acts?
9:30 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, they are all bound by them. They're bound by the law, they're bound by the code, they're bound by the policies, and it's their duty to know what their responsibilities are.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
Exactly.
Would it be fair to say, then, that a manager working within a particular unit, whether it's the RCMP or Treasury Board, or wherever, ought to be aware of those things because that's part of their accountability, part of their monitoring, and it's part of their own evaluation, in terms of their job, might I even say?
I don't want to make it too simplistic, but in many ways they're responsible for the safety and for whether people feel comfortable coming forward with these allegations or not. It's their responsibility to ensure an open workplace, a comfortable workplace, and a safe workplace, where their staff or their colleagues can come forward with these types of allegations.
9:30 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Correct.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
So where that falls down is on this whole side of human interaction—is that correct?—where people either have cultural, linguistic, or different barriers, or they have different perceptions?
9:30 a.m.
NDP
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
Thank you very much.
Last week, Mr. MacLeod, you mentioned certain sectors of the workplace. You used the word “sophisticated” in terms of the understanding of sexual harassment. I find that word challenging at the best of times, and I would certainly like to know what you were referencing in that context.
But recognizing that in some workplaces there is a different culture, obviously, I'm wondering what efforts are under way to understand that culture. Since you came, a number of our witnesses spoke about a deeply hierarchical nature, where women aren't in positions of decision-making. It's simply that hierarchical structure, but perhaps other things as well.
It's not enough just to understand. What is being done to recognize that these cultures must change and that they are unacceptable? Sophisticated or not, everybody knows that sexual harassment is wrong, and while it may take different forms in certain workplaces, or be more prevalent, what is being done to target and change the specific workplaces where there may or may not be higher levels of sexual harassment?
9:30 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
The comment was made in relation to the varying levels of harassment. The only ideal level of harassment is zero. It's fair to say that all organizations in the Government of Canada have work to do to get to that point.
The context was that there are varying levels of harassment. If you look at the Canadian Human Rights Commission, for example, you will see it is among the lowest in terms of all kinds of reported harassment in the survey. That is part of it. All departments are required to have action plans coming out of the public service survey. All deputies have agreed to do that, and they're doing it. We will be reporting on their action plans as we go through the next rounds of the MAF. That isn't specific, of course, to sexual harassment, but all kinds, which is a good thing in terms of changing culture.
9:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
This year they have to have a plan in for the MAF.
9:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
We'll be measuring the results this year following up on the survey results from last year.
9:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes. We are in the process of doing that right now, actually.
Having a plan in place would be a first step. In terms of the representation of people in the government, as I mentioned earlier, it is fairly close to labour force availability throughout, even at very senior positions. What remains a puzzle is, even with those conditions, how this still happens.
One thing we've found that has worked very well, in issues we've identified as problems through our monitoring with departments in the past, is making it known. Transparency is a good driver of better performance. We also have a public service management dashboard, where departments can share best techniques. In terms of doing it, for example, CRA ran a respect campaign a few years ago. They looked at harassment and discrimination, for example. They thought the core value they needed to work on was respect rather than treating the symptoms of the lack of it. Sharing those practices can, one, shed light on the issue, and, two, give people the actual practical tools to make a difference.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you for coming. It is greatly appreciated.
I have two questions for you.
When a woman is in charge, are there fewer cases of harassment, in your view?
How could this study, and everything we can gather from the witnesses, help you? How could we focus the study in order to find ways to reduce harassment in the workplace?