Status of Women Committee on Nov. 29th, 2012

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

That is there, and it's very clear in your presentation that it's what you are expecting. I have to say that you are to be congratulated on this policy.

As well, I have noticed during our meetings with the different departments that have visited us in our last few meetings we continue to see a very clear expectation of a no-harassment policy in all of the departments. More and more every day we are seeing this in presentations being given to us. As we know and you know, this takes work. It takes high expectation. It takes leadership, and of course it takes training.

Are there separate training documents developed for managers, and what do those include?

[Serge Jetté]

Right now we offer the same workshop. I would say it's 90% the same for employees and managers. We're now offering workshops for managers, because sometimes there are questions or issues that are different from a management perspective. However, managers are also employees and they also have a manager. The content is 95% the same.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Okay.

Is it the same with you, Ms. Savoie?

[Linda Savoie]

In our case, the workshops are the same, except that we try to put managers together in the workshop so that we can discuss challenges associated with management.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Okay.

At what intervals will refresher training be offered?

[Serge Jetté]

In our case, at the time of the previous survey, some training was offered. It was mandatory in some sectors. It was based on the sector's action plan. Right now the plan is to make sure it's an ongoing requirement for entering managers, so through that means we're assured that anybody who's a manager or supervisor will have received the training within six months of entry. For employees, there's no plan for a second cycle.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Okay.

You mentioned in your remarks that Status of Women has put measures in place to ensure the prompt resolution of complaints. Could you name and describe these measures?

[Linda Savoie]

Primarily we encourage informal discussions with your manager to start with. As we are very small and we have very few complaints, I can't say we have a lot of experience managing these types of issues. At this point in time, our experience has been good.

The challenge with a small organization such as ours is that an informal mechanism of that sort relies very much on trust, and you have very few people to go to. You are basically dealing with a limited pool of people to whom you can address your challenges. If a person is not comfortable addressing this with their manager, we have to encourage them to discuss it with another manager.

Primarily we try to encourage better communications and prompt reporting to their management. Those are the first steps.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Do you have something you want to add? No.

Can you describe the benchmarks you are using to ensure that these measures allow for the quick and effective resolution of complaints? How do you put this into practice?

[Serge Jetté]

When you say “these measures”, what do you mean?

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

I mean the benchmarks. How do you make sure that this is happening, that they are reporting any....

[Serge Jetté]

When people file formal complaints, we keep track of them.

I'm not sure I understood the question.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

I know that you have expectations. I'm just wondering how you go about measuring whether it's all working well.

[Serge Jetté]

That's a very tough one, because the number of complaints filed doesn't tell the story at all. If you have an organization that has 40 complaints filed, it could mean that people feel safe coming forward and that the organization will take action. If you have an organization that has zero complaints filed, it could mean that people are scared or that people don't trust management or whatever.

I think the survey is one good indicator of whether harassment is happening. People can say whether they perceive that they have been harassed. That doesn't mean they have been. That's their perception.

That would be one of the best approaches to measure that.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

The floor now goes to Ms. Sgro for seven minutes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Welcome to the witnesses. I appreciate the fact that you're here today to help us on the study we're doing.

We continue to talk about how the policies sound great and look great on paper, but don't necessarily produce the results we ultimately want to have, which is a safe environment.

Ms. Savoie, the mandate of Status of Women Canada has not changed since 1977. Again, the words sound wonderful, but is it not time they were updated? Is a review of the mandate called for to bring it more into the 21st century?

[Linda Savoie]

Those are not decisions within my purview. I'm here to implement the policies, not to suggest their content at this point.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Okay, that's fine.

Mr. Jetté from Treasury Board, I'm concerned about the issue of the two years for erasing the record. That could pose quite a problem when someone who has a serious problem says the right things and gets it to go away.

What does it take for someone to be fired from the public service for harassment or sexual harassment? This has to be hypothetical, because I'm asking you a question you probably....

[Serge Jetté]

What I can tell you is that the quantum of the discipline to be applied is determined by management. It's a delegated responsibility in collaboration with human resources, labour relations. When a harassment situation has been investigated, and it is well founded,

the delegated manager will have to meet with the people from human resources to discuss disciplinary action. I am honestly not qualified to explain what the degree of sexual harassment or harassment has to be for dismissal. I don't know.

But I can tell you that, if it is a case of sexual harassment,

we will inform the employee, if she or he comes forward about sexual harassment, that this is also a criminal offence. She or he could bring charges criminally. We inform people of that. If somebody comes forward with a formal complaint about sexual harassment, we would also inform our security folks. However, I can't tell you about discipline measures.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

How often are people transferred out of a department as a result of harassment complaints?

[Serge Jetté]

I've never seen it in my limited experience, but I know that it is more frequent that somebody, one of the two parties, would be transferred out of a unit. Sometimes that's the remedial measure that is taken.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

If the immediate attempt at fast resolution...because often it's an attitude, it's a culture in a department or an individual. That's just the way they are and they don't have that perception of what may not be offensive to them is clearly offensive to me or someone else. All the rules will not change that. When you are going through your hiring process and your interview process, how do you look for the kinds of sensitivities that are required when you're in the management level? How do you identify that? Sometimes it stands out and other times it doesn't. We often hear, especially in some of the things that we've heard, that some of the people you would least expect to be accused of sexual harassment are.

It is difficult to identify. If the individual doesn't want to come forward and lodge a complaint—and, I would say that people do not come forward and lodge these complaints easily—and if someone in a department observes someone else who is being treated disrespectfully, bullied, or whatever, in your policies are they encouraged or allowed to come forward and lodge a complaint on behalf of someone else?

[Serge Jetté]

No, you have to be the subject of the harassment to lodge a complaint. If you witness it you cannot lodge a complaint.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

How often are you reviewing your practices?