Evidence of meeting #55 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was harassment.
A video is available from Parliament.
Noon
NDP
The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin
Mr. Kers, I have to interrupt you because your time is up.
The floor now goes to Ms. Ambler. You have five minutes.
Noon
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all witnesses for being here today. You've provided very interesting testimony, so thank you for that.
I'd like to address the example of the woman who was three months pregnant and worried about her job. Was that you who raised it, Ms. Benson? Sorry, I knew it was in this area. I believe it was as a result of Ms. Ashton's question about looming job cuts.
It probably struck me because like many of us in the room we've all been working and pregnant at the same time and worrying if our employer will look at us differently and consider us a bit more expendable because we're going to be taking maternity leave and maybe are not worthy of keeping on. I'm trying to better understand how that relates to sexual harassment in particular.
Do you consider sexual harassment that choice not to continue the employment of someone who is three months pregnant or do you believe that.... I'm trying to link how job cuts cause sexual harassment.
Noon
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
It is not that job cuts cause sexual harassment. The question was why don't people come forward about sexual harassment.
What I was trying to convey is that women are afraid to come forward and say they have been sexually harassed because of what's going on within their workplaces. Will they be believed it has taken place? Will the complaint perhaps impede their career? When we're talking about the job cuts and the real fear out there, I think it's probably quadrupled. If there was sexual harassment, women would not be coming forward. I said I was at a meeting and a young woman who was three months pregnant was saying she was afraid to say she was pregnant for fear of losing her job. The woman sitting beside her may be sexually harassed but she's not going to put up her hand and say she's being sexually harassed and could she still please have her job.
I think that you have to look at the climate within our workplaces right now, where the job cuts are taking place, where the process that's in place is very unfair, which I have spoken to Mr. Clement about. Because we don't have seniority within our workplaces, individuals are forced to compete against their colleagues. As Mr. Kingston said, it's not the work that's leaving, it's people who are leaving and the work is still there.
My reference was that in today's climate with all the looming job cuts, if there is—and there is—sexual harassment in the workplace, those women would not stand up and say so and file a complaint that they've been sexually harassed.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Okay. That's certainly what we think in some cases might happen.
Other than never cutting jobs or firing anyone for any reason whatsoever, what is the solution to that problem? Other than complete job security, what's the solution to that?
12:05 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
The solution to sexual harassment in the workplace is that the employer has an obligation to have a safe working environment, and—
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
No, no. What's the solution to the problem of people not wanting to report because they feel their job might be in jeopardy, other than giving people 100% complete security that they will never lose their job for any reason?
I guess maybe it's too much of a philosophical question.
12:05 p.m.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
No, no.
Go ahead, Bob.
12:05 p.m.
National President, Agriculture Union, Co-Chair, Public Service Wide Policy Committee on Health and Safety, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Okay, it's the solution to that.
12:05 p.m.
National President, Agriculture Union, Co-Chair, Public Service Wide Policy Committee on Health and Safety, Public Service Alliance of Canada
We all know there was a downsizing process. As I said, it was supposed to be based on work identified and the people then associated with that work. It didn't happen. They went in and just started targeting people and then sorting it out after. If you changed it to what it was supposed to be, that would be transparent.
As well, the website that would allow people to change was never managed, never set up properly. When we did that in the nineties, we actually did it physically. We managed the alternation process. It was a lot more transparent and it was much more well received. This spectre that you'd be picked on, you're in trouble....
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
I'm glad you brought that up, because when you talked about jobs versus the work itself, I found myself—
12:05 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin
Ms. Ambler, I am sorry to interrupt you. Thank you.
We have enough time for one last round.
Ms. Ashton, you have five minutes.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
Thank you very much.
I'd like to go back and make sure that Ms. Chamberlain and Ms. Hauck have an opportunity to share some cases or some of the trends they see in their work.
12:05 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Union of National Defence Employees, Public Service Alliance of Canada
In preparation for coming here today, I actually canvassed my staff, because I'm not directly involved in the representation of the membership. Quite frankly, I have not personally witnessed or experienced sexual harassment. Even though DND may not be the greatest workplace, I enjoyed my work with DND.
I asked for examples and whether or not we have any ongoing cases. I was surprised to find out that we actually have four.
One was an actual allegation by a male member against a male member. I don't know what's going to happen with that one.
In another case brought to my attention, one of our female members filed a charge of sexual harassment in the workplace. She's in a non-traditional female job working with a group of males. The outcome of her grievance was that the complaint was not founded. She is now facing allegations of filing a frivolous charge and is under investigation herself.
In another case, the employer actually upheld a grievance of an allegation that a male co-worker exposed himself to another female member. The respondent received a five-day suspension. The reason the grievance is at the final level with us is that the complainant was not happy with the outcome of the five-day suspension. She felt the penalty should be more.
In the fourth example I was given, we actually have a person who has been accused of touching female co-workers. The employer is possibly looking at workforce adjusting this person and giving them a buyout to leave.
That's how DND addresses harassment in the workplace.
12:10 p.m.
National Vice-President, Union of Solicitor General Employees, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Quickly, because I know our time is short, I will speak on behalf of the membership within the RCMP.
Unlike Mary, I am on the ground. I have been with the RCMP for a considerable number of decades. As my colleague, brother Kers, very eloquently said, yes, it knows no bounds. Whether you're a regular member facing sexual harassment, a civilian member, or a public service employee—within the RCMP we have the three categories of employees—it knows no bounds.
I could give you example upon example, if we had the time, but I think the key in the RCMP is that the police officers are our protectors. They are our members in society whom we turn to each and every day and ask them to please keep us safe. The last thing we believe as an employee is that they will be the offender. That is the last thing we believe.
They are also in positions of authority. Those are our managers, for the most part, and they are the police officers. They are our police officers over here and our managers over here: we have power of authority, abuse of authority. We have the protectors of society: well, we'll just not worry about whether we have to live up to those expectations.
They as the RCMP should have a very high tolerance for differences. It doesn't matter if it's a difference in your sexual beliefs or your ethnic background, they should have a high tolerance. They don't appear to have that.
For me, as a worker within that workplace representing employees and members of the PSAC, it becomes very difficult, because they police themselves in these situations.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB
Thank you very much for that.
Going back to Bill C-42, what consultation took place with your colleagues? What sense do civilians working on the ground have that Bill C-42 will make any difference?
12:10 p.m.
National Representative, Union of Solicitor General Employees, Public Service Alliance of Canada
As an offshoot of a normal labour management consultation process, USGE was offered the opportunity to take part in a variety of working groups to assess or deal with different elements of Bill C-42. As I mentioned earlier, in my case, I sit on the working group that is dealing with the issue of harassment. Quite frankly, from the assessment of the membership I have contact with—I represent the RCMP in western and northern Canada, while my colleague does Ontario east—I think it's safe to say that the assessment of the public servants is that changes to Bill C-42 won't make a hill of beans of difference in the handling of harassment, sexual harassment, or many other issues at the RCMP.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin
I am going to have to stop you there. Since we do not have enough time for another round, we are going to end this meeting.
Thank you very much to our witnesses for coming to meet with us. It was very interesting.
We will now continue the meeting in camera to discuss committee business. So I will suspend the meeting for a few moments.
Thank you.
[Proceedings continue in camera]