Status of Women Committee on Feb. 12th, 2013

[LCol Karen Davis]

I believe that definitely yes, in an organization such as the Canadian Forces, the chain of command is critical to operational effectiveness, and therefore, leadership within the chain of command is also critical to ensuring that justice takes place when it's required. Yes, I think that leadership is extremely important. Good policy is important as well, but if you don't have good leadership implementing the policy, things can still go wrong.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Would you say that the new mixed gender leadership teams.... Would you say that the warrior culture still exists, but that when you add women into the mix of leadership, the possibility of harassment and sexual harassment decreases?

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Very quickly.

[LCol Karen Davis]

Yes, I would say that leaders are more sensitive to the fact that allowing harassment to occur on their teams undermines operational effectiveness. Has that completely happened in all areas? I don't think we're completely there yet, but I think leadership does understand that more than they did a decade ago, for example.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you, Ms. Davis.

Ms. St-Denis, you have seven minutes.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, I apologize. I was absent from the previous meetings. I was not present for all your discussions, but I find the topic very interesting, and I have a few questions.

My first question is for Ms. Davis.

A little earlier, you spoke about the warrior culture. You said that women were welcome as long as they could adapt. My question is about the culture. What do you mean when you say that the women must adapt? Does that mean that they must adopt the same attitude as the men so that the men will accept having them there? I would like you to expand a little on this. What do you mean when you say that a woman in the field must adapt?

[LCol Karen Davis]

When a woman joins an occupation like combat arms in particular—sort of the last domain that women are integrating into—what I'm saying is that there are certain things that are considered very important in combat arms, such as physical strength, being able to withstand various types of adversity, and that sort of thing. When women come into that environment, there is a certain culture that supports that kind of toughness, that warrior resilience.

If women come into such an environment and start complaining, about people swearing in their presence, for example, and those sorts of things, they will soon lose credibility. So women learn to accept the way the environment is, in certain ways, in order to be accepted by their peers and become an integrated part of the unit.

One of the things that have been noticed by many over the years is that when a woman joins a traditional all-male environment, she believes she's been accepted when she's become one of the guys. Women aren't given opportunities to change the values in those environments or the way they operate, but they are accepted, as long as they can perform effectively within the environment.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you.

My second question is for Ms. Wilson.

We are saying that women are accepted by men if they adopt a certain attitude. How do women behave toward women in that environment? Is there a lot of competition between them? If not, do they protect each other? Do they form separate groups? Do they try to completely integrate with the men?

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

I think, as Ms. Davis said, it depends. When you get into an environment such as combat arms, which is a very masculine-type environment, I think that sense of needing to integrate is probably stronger than in, say, a logistics-based environment, where that stress and that need to be very masculine is reduced.

My experience from the private sector to the military has been very, very similar to that of other women. I think it depends on the nature of the individuals you have there. I think it also depends on the leadership to manage those personalities.

Even within my time within the forces, if I were to do something very physically competitive, I'd probably be surrounded by other women who were also apt to be very competitive, for example, with some of the base teams. You'll see that just based on the interests of that group.

I've also been in environments where it's very female heavy and very supportive as well, in particular for those who seem to have already gone through the military, let's say 10 years prior. There's a mentorship role that quite often gets adapted.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Let's talk about complaints. I don't know which one of you can answer this question.

What do women do in cases of intimidation and sexual harassment? Do you have the impression that they complain easily? If not, are they afraid of reprisals because of that? Are they afraid of losing job opportunities? What is their attitude toward filing a complaint?

This morning in the House, I heard a member say that 200 complaints were waiting to be resolved. Do all women who have a problem speak up? Or do they dare to at all?

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

I'll answer very quickly, and then I'll leave Ms. Davis some time as well.

I think that we have to be careful in taking what is.... Women are wired a bit differently and we do like to communicate. We do like to talk about things and issues; whereas men are a little different along those lines. If I've had an experience where women have had an issue, what they felt to be a challenge, their way of dealing with it is to communicate. I think we have to be careful to kind of dissociate a reluctance to complain about harassment but talking about it to sort of just the way that women do business.

In my experience again, I don't see the reluctance to complain about harassment. I feel there is a sense of support, and we're working out the kinks in the system as it relates to bringing those things forward. But I'm also aware that even outside the CF or wherever, when it comes to something like a topic of sexual harassment, it's a touchy one and it's a tough one. There are women that find that process to be difficult.

[Lise St-Denis, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I have one last question.

Are the complaints resolved quickly? Is this process similar to the complaints process for any other area or does the process take much longer?

[LCol Karen Davis]

I don't know if I'm the best person to answer that question. I think it just depends on the situation, on whether it's a formal complaint. Petty Officer Wilson may want to comment on that.

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

Sexual harassment is treated under the umbrella of harassment. There isn't a separate process.

However, when that element of sexual harassment comes into play, it certainly depends on the nature of the complaint. If it's a comment, that will be treated much quicker and in a different way than, say, if there was actually a physical element to it, and involved further parties, such as the military police. It completely depends on the severity and the nature, and even to the extent of who is involved, how quickly the complaint would be addressed.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

Given that we started a little late, we have only three minutes left.

Ms. Bateman, you have three minutes.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you both so very much for being here. It's very, very encouraging to hear you, Petty Officer Wilson. You started your career in 1998 and you note the changes. Ms. Davis, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the most recent study that you've cited was in 1998, but also ones in 1992 and 1989. It's just so remarkable that your whole experience, Ms. Wilson, has occurred since that time. It's wonderful to hear that both of you are saying that the world is improving.

I'm particularly interested in the structure that you sit on. You're elected to serve your colleagues on this board. Is that the case?

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

That's correct.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm particularly impressed that the leadership makes this kind of facility possible, because you're right: the 51% of us who are women need to talk about things, and to have that mechanism formalized is wonderful to see. I want to hear about the structure of that and when it was formed.

I also want to hear from Ms. Davis in terms of.... I'm equally impressed that the military clearly funds.... I just need clarification that it is the Canadian military that funds your work as a defence scientist. You are with Director General Military Personnel Research and Analysis, and you work in a leadership institute that supports the work of our military. Is that correct?

[LCol Karen Davis]

Yes.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm so impressed.

Petty Officer Wilson, you would be able to access information that Ms. Davis prepares, or studies that she has.

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

Absolutely.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

And this is just one more resource for you to do your job.

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

Absolutely, and one more resource for me to educate myself on the concerns that I might not know about, but should be aware about as well.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Excellent. Given the time constraints, could you take just a brief period of time to explain to us how this works?

This is a beautiful mechanism on paper. Give us an example of how it works, so that it can make a difference.

[PO 1 Shanna Wilson]

I'll share my experience.

It started in 1997. That's when they were approved.

As I moved up in the ranks and found myself liaising with other more senior women, I found out about DWAO.

Now it's interesting, because the unit in which I currently work is about 50-50 male and female, including those more senior ranks within the small section I'm in. Every single one of the women in there, with the exception of one, has at some point been a regional co-chair. They move around. Some have done so in the recruit school and that sort of thing.

We're starting to see, as this awareness grows, that not only is the awareness becoming stronger and successful in its intent, but it's also spreading the awareness about the group and what the group is involved in. I've heard on several occasions, “Talk to DWAO about it”. It is this entity that people know as a third party. You don't have to go through your chain of command. If there is a feeling that it is a man and he is not going to quite get it, there is this external group that's sort of ear to the ground, so to speak, that supports women.