Status of Women Committee on Feb. 14th, 2013

[Francine Boudreau]

If I have understood correctly, you said that things have improved over time.

When I joined Correctional Service Canada, 26 years ago, there was a total of 34 inmates. About 32 of them would masturbate on a daily basis. That was common practice. Back then, an attempt was being made to have women account for 10% of employees in federal penitentiaries. Over the years, an improvement has been made without going through legal channels. Today, no inmates masturbate. If any of them do, we make sure they change their attitude.

Could you please repeat your second question regarding the percentage of women?

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Do you think there is some reason for the difference that there are fewer women reporting harassment than men? Is it that women are less likely to be placed in an environment where harassment or repeat harassment is likely to occur in the first place? Are women more likely than men to either report or otherwise resolve incidents of harassment before they become repetitive? Is there a reason why there are fewer reports of that from women?

[Francine Boudreau]

That's because the matter has become very trivialized. I have an anecdote to share with you.

A psychologist at work held a training session for correctional officers. To help with her statistics, she asked for written comments to see whether there were any sexual offence problems. She also wanted all the employees to write a report when they come across such incidents. In all of her courses, correctional officers would always say that, if they had to report all such incidents, that would take up all their time. Those incidents are very trivialized. That's also the case when it comes to female correctional officers.

Women do inmate head counts and, for them, that's not a big deal. They just keep going. I am not talking about official head counts, but rather about head counts at night, when officers complete their rounds. It's very trivialized. A great deal of education needs to be provided. That's why the statistics are often unreliable. Women do not report those kinds of incidents. The statistics are unreliable.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Does your union offer any additional training on sexual harassment to its members? Are you aware when you go in what you're going into? Is there any kind of training for you?

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

Prior to becoming a correctional officer, it used to be a 12-week program. I believe it's reduced now. I'm not quite sure of the amount of time they spend at the staff college. In that training there is a small part that deals with manipulation of inmates, how not to cross boundaries.

I, myself, provided a training session at the institution for officers and other staff a few years ago, and it was called boundaries training. But specifically, no, they don't discuss....

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Is the training different for men than for women, or is it all the same for both?

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

They're all the same, yes. Men and women take the training together.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

And that's before they go into the workplace?

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

Before they become correctional officers, yes.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Is there anything offered along the way as you are working in the place and you really see what you need?

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

It sounds harsh, but basically you're thrown to the wolves. So you learn. It's a process. The union is there to support you if you do have questions. Francine and I are both local representatives for the Status of Women, so we do have a lot of female officers that we will approach. When they are new to the institution, we'll introduce ourselves and help them and support them along the way, because there are many challenges and risks as female officers, and it's very different from our male counterparts.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

There certainly would be. I certainly appreciate the job you're doing.

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

We now go to Ms. Sgro. You have seven minutes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

And thank you to our witnesses for coming out again and taking the time to give us some insight into the kinds of challenges you face in a very difficult environment.

I'm going to try to separate my questions into two parts, because this is the federal workplace. Let's talk about the people with whom you work, not the inmates, initially.

You work in an environment of much bravado, I suspect, and that would have to be the way it is. Everybody who works for Corrections Canada in the prisons, with very tough people behind those bars, must think they're all pretty macho kind of people. I would think that would immediately set up an environment, when there are other women of equal rank, for a variety of inappropriate remarks and comments and so on. Logic tells me that, just because of who your other colleagues are.

What kind of exposure have you had? Or are you just tough enough from working in that environment that you simply roll with the punches, don't bother to lodge complaints against your fellow workers, and just shrug it off?

[Francine Boudreau]

I will speak for myself. It's out of the question for me to let myself be pushed around. That's clear.

When it comes to my colleagues, valued judgments are always at play. People wonder whether we had it coming, and that kind of thinking is widespread. Honestly, I have always fought against that. I don't need to be tough, but I do need justice. That's important. When something is not normal, it's not normal.

I am not sure I have actually answered your question.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Am I wrong to suggest that you'd probably take 10 incidents and it would be number 10 where you'd finally say that's enough? You wouldn't be lodging a complaint on the first incident of one of your co-workers making particular comments or touching? Your tolerance level, I would think, would be much higher than a lot of women in a lot of other jobs, just because you are working in a completely male environment, with the inmates and your co-workers.

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

It's probably slightly higher, but there is a line you don't cross, and a lot of the women correctional officers are very good at drawing that line with male officers. It's a younger generation coming in, and the male officers are very aware of the zero tolerance for sexual harassment and harassment in the workplace. So I think you have that sensitivity towards that.

As far as going forward and putting a complaint in against somebody, I'm not aware of any situations in our region, in Ontario, where this has occurred. The union talks to them, brings them to mediation, and if it goes any further than that...I'm not aware of any cases that have been brought forward. People tend to deal with that in the workplace.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I see that according to the statistics there are more men complaining than women complaining, and you kind of wonder if that's just part of that atmosphere of women not wanting to see that they have to lodge a complaint that they feel they can deal with themselves.

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

I think maybe some of those stats were for inmate behaviour—disrespect to an officer. There are a lot of charges. There are a lot more men who work in the service than women as well. The numbers are higher. And when you put a complaint in on an inmate for disrespect, that is harassment right there. When they call you names, you write up a report, you put “charge it” on it. So there may be more men who tend to do that than women.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Now if we talk about your having to deal with the inmates and the kind of exposure you have, different activities that go on in their living quarters, as you're trying to do your jobs.... You're surrounded inside and out by a lot of males. What kinds of charges are they going to get? They're already in jail, so what, they add 10 days on to their prison sentence? Big deal for them.

Incentives are usually offered. Would they not be for positive behaviour? And would that not include the kinds of activities that some of your colleagues have witnessed, as far as masturbation and various other activities that must go on within the cells?

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

There definitely needs to be a change in policy, because that's exactly it. The inmates, whenever they conduct themselves in an inappropriate way, don't see any recourse. There's no....

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

They can't go to jail because they're already in there.

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

They're already there. They'll tell you, “Go ahead and charge me”. So there needs to be more appropriate.... We need to reflect 2013, where there's zero tolerance for this sort of behaviour. And it's not there.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

What kinds of recommendations would you like to see come out of this committee?

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

Changes on the offence, on the charge offence.