Status of Women Committee on Feb. 14th, 2013

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

That's shocking. When we hear about the concern for prison employees' safety on the news, we usually hear men talking. So your information is shocking to all of us.

I hope that all members of the committee will realize the gender impact this legislation will have, which will worsen the experiences that women correctional workers are facing.

Do you know of women who are thinking of going into corrections, and are they raising issues? What do you tell them when they ask you if this is something they can see themselves doing?

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

When I speak to women who are thinking of going into corrections.... It's not for everybody; obviously there are different risks involved. I try to make them aware of things I may see, things I've encountered. You want to give them a good, realistic look at what it is like inside. It's a different world in there; things don't run the same as they do out on the street. There's a lot of awareness training, I suppose, when you talk to them. It takes a different personality to work in there. Everybody works differently in there, too, so you never know how a person is going to react on the inside either.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

The pressures that you will now begin to see in the system as a result of bills like Bill C-10—do people wonder about that? Is it something that you talk about among your colleagues, and what it will mean for your safety, as women and as correctional workers?

[Francine Boudreau]

This is one of the first times we have appeared before you. Of course, we have talked about these issues in our workplace, and there is some openness. I hope that this openness will turn into understanding and that we will be able to better prepare our young recruits to deal with those types of situations. I keep coming back to training, which would be one way to do that. In addition, it would be a good idea for some of our recommendations to be implemented.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Thank you.

We now go to the government party.

Ms. Ambler, the last five minutes are yours.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to both of you for returning to our committee. We appreciate that very much.

I'd like to follow up on the suggestion you made to Madam Sgro regarding the changes on the charge form. In particular, you mentioned that they should be more detailed and more specific. That's great. Do you have any suggestions on what the punishment would be for an inmate?

Let's say the form has changed, and there's an opportunity to check off a sexual harassment box and to write a detailed description of the harassment complaint. What would you like to see happen next? What would you suggest, other than, say, a transfer? A removal of privileges? I don't know how it works, but could you tell us?

[Francine Boudreau]

It all depends on how the complaint and the offence report are handled. Corrective measures increase in seriousness—first offence, second offence, minor court, major court. There are several levels when it comes to offence reports. It could be handled like any other report in cases such as threats. That would be handled in the same way.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Could you give us an example of the kind of punishment? As we said, they're already in jail. Then they do something wrong again, so what is the punishment? What can we do?

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

It's an independent chairperson who makes that decision, obviously.

Some inmates, when they expose themselves to officers, are sent to segregation. From there they should be assessed by a psychological team, and there may be treatment to follow. It's not necessarily a punishment. I guess you can kind of see segregation that way, but charges should be put in. It's difficult to say what the charge is. That depends on the institution too, whether it is medium, minimum, or maximum security. It would all depend on where they are, because removal of privileges may not apply the same way in a minimum security institution as it does in a maximum one.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

You work at Kingston Penitentiary for men. In the union you are representing, what is the ratio of men to women in the position you are in, as correctional officer?

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

At Kingston Penitentiary we're almost 300 officers. At this point I don't know the exact numbers, but we're almost 50-50. We are almost half.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Okay. I wouldn't have expected that.

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

When I started at Kingston Penitentiary 10 years ago, we were maybe 20 female officers.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

That's out of 300.

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

Yes. It has grown consistently.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

In female prisons, where the inmates are women, as a union representative, do you know if there is a similar number of complaints? What is the nature of those complaints as opposed to the nature of the complaints you might see, or the situations that you might find challenging, in your work environment?

[Francine Boudreau]

I cannot answer that question. I am not in a position to answer it.

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

I have spoken to the women's representative from Grand Valley Institution and there are incidents of inmates exposing themselves to male officers and to female officers. It happens the same in a male environment as well. Our male officers are subjected to that as well sometimes.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

I was wondering about that.

In some ways, when I hear your reports and the challenges you face, it sort of calls into question the practicality of a zero tolerance policy. It's something we all want, but I wonder whether that is possible in your work environment.

We've had representatives from the Canadian military here, and they talk about a warrior mentality, a warrior culture. It seems to me that it's possibly similar.

I see you nodding. I appreciate that.

Thank you again.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

That concludes the first part of our meeting.

Thank you very much for agreeing to appear before our committee again. This was a very thought-provoking exchange, and I think it will help us a great deal in our study.

Ms. Sgro has asked you to provide a brief and your recommendations. The clerk will contact you, and the documentation will be submitted to the committee.

[Anne-Marie Beauchemin]

If there are others who would like to receive a formal brief of our recommendations, we're willing to put something together as well and forward that on.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Very well, thank you.

I will suspend the sitting for a few minutes, so that members can get something to eat and other witnesses can take their seats.

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

We are continuing the meeting.

In the second part of this meeting, I want to welcome Robin Kers, who represents the Union of Solicitor General Employees.

Mr. Kers, we will immediately begin the question and answer period, since we already met with you last January.

Ms. Bateman, you have seven minutes.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much, Mr. Kers, for coming back to help us out.

We previously had some colleagues come back, and my colleague, Madam Truppe, asked the individuals who were witnesses just prior to you what is the reasonable expectation when you start. Obviously if somebody starts a career....

You work with the RCMP, do you not, sir?

[Robin Kers, Labour Relations Officer, National Office, Union of Solicitor General Employees]

No, I don't.