Status of Women Committee on Feb. 26th, 2013

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

You talked about the process and the response. Can you describe the findings of the gender-based analysis and the action plan that was released with regard to the process? Are people familiar with the process? Do you think the process is a good one?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Very briefly on the gender analysis, it found some things that were outside of this discussion around harassment and sexual harassment. Frankly, it found that our policies and our practices were generally bias-free in terms of gender issues.

There are a number of other troubling things that came forward, not unlike what the CPC discovered. I think I heard Mr. McPhail referring to a problem of bullying, and I've described it as misuse of authority and so on.

So the gender action plan, "Gender and Respect" as it's entitled, sets out to take on a whole bunch of issues beyond the harassment and sexual harassment issues, towards going towards a respectful workplace. A number of things are contemplated in that report.

I know there are 37 action items. Many of them deal with how we respond and will respond to harassment complaints, what kind of standards and investigative standards we would have in response to some of these things, timelines, and so on. So we've taken a big step forward to try to put some objective analysis around the organizational response to harassment, but beyond that, I think we have to recognize that there are behaviours that have to be modified to prevent workplace conflict and harassment.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I'm glad you raised the issue of bullying. That's what you describe as misuse of authority and bullying, essentially they are the same thing, so that is predominantly the largest part of the case. It's 90%.

How are people going to be able to bring these cases forward to resolution? Apparently the systemic issues regarding that are something that you're really looking it.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Any number of ways. Of course there are existing ways of making a complaint to people outside of the chain of command, but we've even begun to provide for confidential reporting lines and other means of having people identify those. I think we also have a responsibility to drive the reforms from the top down so that the people who are misusing authority, the people who have a misunderstanding of what their job is, are not committing those sorts of conditions in the first place.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

How are you going to do that?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

By effective leadership, accountability, and oversight. For example, I've restructured the organization in terms of having all the commanding officers report directly to me. We meet frequently, and I can go directly into an issue and make sure they are delivering on what my expectations are.

That, I expect—without sounding overly militaristic—is how we're going to do this. We're going to move the leadership yardsticks forward by leading the organization.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Are you raising these issues of bullying when you meet with them directly one on one, on a consistent basis?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

On a consistent basis, what I'm raising is style of leadership, employee engagement, and respect for other people in the workplace. That's consistently a discussion we have.

I don't discuss bullying per se every time, but we're focused on making sure the organization is benefiting from modern leadership approaches to running a big organization like we have.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Moving to a larger number of women in the RCMP with your recruitment targets, are you doing an appropriate thing to make sure people are ready to accept that degree of women, if you have that kind of a take-up? That is a fairly significant change.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes, I think so. There's more work to be done and we are looking at changing our HR practices to accommodate—not to accommodate, but to react to that changing reality, I suppose, through transfers, job sharing, and a number of strategies that we already have, but providing for a modern workplace.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Lastly, what are some of the attributes that females bring to “RCMPing”? That's a new verb.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

“RCMPing”, that's a p-verb.

I'll tell you that the value of having women in a police role is that you take the interaction with a citizen away from the force dynamic and you put it in the behaviour, thoughtful dynamic. It is quite a powerful force to be reckoned with. We have this traditional notion that we're wrestling people and jumping on people and putting handcuffs on people, but the woman's view of the world is a much more powerful, persuasive force than just an arm around the neck. And they represent half the—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Unfortunately, I have to interrupt you, Mr. Paulson, because Ms. Crockatt's time is done.

A little earlier, I told you you had one minute left, but I thought it was a five-minute round. I apologize for saying there was one minute left when there were three.

We will now go to the official opposition with Ms. Ashton. You have seven minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you.

We're glad to have you here again, Commissioner Paulson.

We just heard from Mr. McPhail, and he stated that there is no systemic problem of harassment within the RCMP. When you've spoken in the past, many times you've referred to a cultural dysfunction. To a lot of people there's a parallel between these two concepts. I'm wondering, if there is no systemic harassment crisis, as Mr. McPhail says, what is helping to contribute to the cultural dysfunction you see.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think that's right. I don't think there is a systemic sexual harassment problem in the RCMP. We can maybe debate words around what the problem is. I've described it as misuse of authority. Mr. McPhail refers to bullying. Other people may refer to it as harassment. It's a deterioration of that use of authority in our hierarchy. I've often referred to it as “absent principle, absent analysis, absent evidence, do as I say because I'm the boss”. Police officers are required to do their investigations individually and make important decisions. So I think that use of authority is at odds with that sort of independence.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Do you think there's a gendered element here, though? There's systemic sexism that one could point to. We've heard from others in other areas that when you have men in an overwhelming number of decision-making positions, you end up having an imbalance that can create an environment where not just harassment but that full spectrum of sexist behaviour can take place. When you talk about the abuse of authority, shouldn't we look at it with a gender lens?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Well, I think we are looking at it through a gender lens. I don't know, though, that it is as broad and perhaps as deep-rooted as some would have us believe. I think it's a problem. I think we're transitioning from an older sort of paramilitary, male-dominated force to a new, modern police force that is gender-free. There are legacies; there's no question about it. It continued to be male dominated at the very senior ranks, and it's something we're going to have to fix.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

I think the gender-free statement poses problems because when we're talking about the need to do a gender-based analysis you need.... I know the RCMP has been involved with the gendered lens, and that's important to assess where we're at today.

But having said that, I did want to move on to another question.

The fourth recommendation by Mr. McPhail spoke of an external review mechanism for harassment that would be independent. Do you agree with the importance of that? Mr. McPhail said that the key to credibility was independence. How do you see that recommendation coming into reality and is that important to you?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I think it is. I think the element of independence in ultimately reviewing the force's response to harassment complaints and the disposition on some of these complaints is important.

For example, I think there's a wide range of understanding of how that independence would be brought to bear, from independent outside-the-force investigators for harassment complaints to the existing mechanism that we have today, the external review committee that ultimately reviews these things, and the Federal Court, which has weighed in on some of these things. The CPC now and in its new iteration as the civilian complaints review body will be available to do these independent reviews.

I think it's important. It's important to confidence within the force and from outside the force.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

In today's news cycle there was a reference to the RCMP expecting a cut of $58 million. Have you heard of that figure? You've got some very bold recruitment targets here, and financial resources will obviously be necessary to get on with that, never mind the actual process of dealing with sexual harassment. We're talking about the funds that are necessary here and yet we hear news of this cut.

Have you heard about this potential cut and could you tell us about the importance of having a strong financial base to do the work you need to do?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I have not heard of a cut of $58 million, so I'll have to be on my Berry as soon as I'm done here.

That said, we have contributed and participated in our end-of-the-deficit reduction exercise. We are well positioned to achieve those goals.

As I said earlier this morning, I don't think this transformation turns on resources particularly. There will be some need for resources. As some said this morning, there's almost $10 million provided for in the new Bill C-42, and that's to do a number of things.

So I don't think it turns on resources; it turns on the attentiveness of managers and executives to deliver on this action plan and to report it to folks such as you.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Regarding the message that we've gotten that women are often afraid to come forward about harassment and abuse, two weeks ago the Human Rights Watch report came out about the harrowing experience of aboriginal women in northern B.C., and again there's this idea of their being afraid to come forward.

I'm wondering if you support the Human Rights Watch recommendation to curb alleged abuse against women and girls, and specifically aboriginal women and girls, and this notion of bolstering training to counter racism and sexism in the treatment of aboriginal women and girls by RCMP officers.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Let me just say, look, I am against the abuse of women, girls, humans. That's our job, frankly, as a police force, to intervene when those kind of situations arise.

I'm very troubled. I said that this morning and I'll say it again now. I'm very concerned with this notion that citizens are somehow afraid to come forward with allegations of abuse at the hands of the police. That's very troubling at a very significant level. That's not my experience and that's not my officers' experience in some of these areas, that people are afraid to come forward.

I think we need to understand that better. We need to have all of the facts available to do a complete assessment as to what is giving people the idea that they should be afraid of coming forward.

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I am sorry, but I have to interrupt you. I apologize. The time you had is in fact up.

We now go to Ms. Bateman, who has seven minutes.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Is it seven minutes or five minutes?