Evidence of meeting #67 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was complaint.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Tilly O'Neill Gordon) Conservative Tilly O'Neill-Gordon
Thank you.
We'll now move to our second round of questioning, beginning with Ms. Ambler, for five minutes.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our guests today for three very interesting presentations.
Professor Welsh, I'd like to continue where my colleague Ms. James left off, with regard to reporting. We understand that in order to properly address an issue it's necessary to have the participation of both parties, and we respect the right of the respondent also to be involved in the process.
Is there an effective way to balance a desire for confidential reporting and on the other side to directly address the issue effectively? For example, does the severity of the incident affect whether a confidential report would be effective? In short, what are the benefits and drawbacks of providing a confidential reporting system?
Professor of Sociology, Vice-Dean, Graduate Education and Program Reviews, Faculty of Arts and Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
I think the issue of confidentiality sometimes can work in early stages, but the reality is that if someone is going forward with a formal complaint against someone and entering either an official quasi-legal process, such as a grievance procedure, or a legal process, then there has to be respect for the respondent wherein the respondent is aware there's a complaint and what the complaint is about, so that the respondent is able to speak to it.
Where confidentiality is an issue—and this is part of what happened in the situation with the death of Theresa Vince.... She initially wanted to be confidential with her managers and say: “I have a problem. My boss is engaging in inappropriate behaviour, and I would like to get some advice. But I also want you to take seriously that it's a complaint.” It's a case of allowing employees to be able to explore, to ask questions, and to have some of this early information-gathering on the part of a complainant be confidential. But I have seen, in the case of our sexual harassment officer here at U of T, and I have talked with others in other places, that there reaches a point at which you have to say to a complainant: “If you're going to take this further, it will not be confidential, because we have a right and a responsibility to allow the respondent to know this information.”
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
In other words, at the early stages, it can be very helpful because it can make the difference between someone making a complaint and not making a complaint.
Professor of Sociology, Vice-Dean, Graduate Education and Program Reviews, Faculty of Arts and Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
It can make a difference in this early intervention, in terms of someone saying, “What are some things that we can do before I file a formal complaint?” It may mean somebody going and talking to the boss and saying that they've got an issue with this person, that they're doing all these inappropriate things and that maybe they should say something in your workplace that they're not going to condone these behaviours before it escalates to a point where someone feels they have no choice but to file a formal complaint.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
As for a potential drawback, one of those could be that perhaps a confidential complaint simply isn't taken seriously enough. Would there be any others?
Professor of Sociology, Vice-Dean, Graduate Education and Program Reviews, Faculty of Arts and Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
That's the risk and that's one of the black boxes of complaint procedures. You need the people receiving the complaint take it seriously, to listen to the person, and to not immediately dismiss it. If it's confidential, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's no record taken. If it's confidential, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person who is charged with taking these complaints doesn't write down on a particular day that something was said about this person.
What may happen is that after one, two, three, or five years, all of a sudden, the person taking the complaint realizes they're receiving a lot of comments about this one person. It puts them in a position where they may be more able to recommend either to their boss or to the complainants coming forward that maybe they should start thinking about formal complaints.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
When you ended your presentation, you wanted to talk about problem solving. I wanted to give you an opportunity to finish what you were going to say about that.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Tilly O'Neill Gordon) Conservative Tilly O'Neill-Gordon
You have 15 seconds left.
Professor of Sociology, Vice-Dean, Graduate Education and Program Reviews, Faculty of Arts and Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
I have to go back to where I was.
In terms of problem solving for complainants, I think my point was about ensuring that they have the supports in place and are able to get the things they need to move forward with their lives. I may be forgetting what you were referring to, so I apologize.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Tilly O'Neill Gordon) Conservative Tilly O'Neill-Gordon
Madame Day, for our last question of the day.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Good afternoon.
I want to thank the professors and all these amazing women for taking part in our study today.
My first question is for Ms. Welsh.
You started to answer Ms. Ashton's question about how Status of Women Canada could play a role in all this. Could you please elaborate on that?
Professor of Sociology, Vice-Dean, Graduate Education and Program Reviews, Faculty of Arts and Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Status of Women has a leadership role in Canada, not just for the federal workplace but for all workplaces. What Status of Women Canada is able to do in terms of setting a research agenda, whether it is their own agenda or contracting out to researchers like me and Professor Berdahl, is to drive the kinds of questions that we're asking and the kinds of information that we think we need to get in dealing with workplace harassment and violence.
I also think the guidelines that you put out and put in place for what employers need to think about in terms of the leadership needed, the training that may be needed, and information on the role of bystander intervention and such, is essential for those of us who work in the field and the employers that are looking for guidance, not just from the Human Rights Commission or from lawyers but also from a more holistic perspective.
Status of Women Canada could start to contribute to and really enhance and broaden the agenda in terms of what we expect our employers to do. The benefits of the recommendations that you're going to put in place for the federal government, for the RCMP in particular, will be very helpful for municipal fire departments and police departments, as well as companies in general, because these have the potential to come from a broader perspective than some of the materials we see coming out from a purely research and purely HR perspectives.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Ms. Berdahl, in a 2008 article, you examined the study of sexual harassment in the workplace over recent decades. You indicated that sexual harassment was no longer seen as just a women's issue. Could you tell us what the ratio of women versus men is? Is it 10 to 1? Who is most subject to harassment?
Professor, University of Toronto, As an Individual
That's a good question.
We do not have enough systematic evidence on that. We can look at complaints, and men's complaints amount to perhaps one-third of complaints that women make—at least at the federal level. For example, in the U.S. in systematic surveys we find that about half of men report experiencing these kinds of behaviours, but only a fraction of those are found to be harassing or threatening. So I would put theirs on the order of 10%, if that of women being harassed is around 50%. So it's a fraction, but it is a significant fraction and proportion of men.
One thing I'd like to point out is the training of people. I teach MBA students—they're mostly men—and when I talk about the harassment of men, they get it, they understand it. Everybody has experienced these gender-based put-downs as men, and that helps train them to see it much more clearly from the woman's perspective.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
We heard from representatives of the Department of National Defence and police forces with a majority of male members. Do you think the situation is different or that the problems are more blatant in organizations like the RCMP and the Canadian Forces? They told us that they received only one to three complaints about sexual harassment.
Professor, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Are you asking me?
Professor, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Did you say one to three complaints of sexual harassment against women or men? Could you rephrase the question?
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
No, the witnesses said they didn't receive very many sexual harassment complaints at all, only very rarely, even though the environments in question were male-dominated. They claimed that there were around one, two or three complaints, not really any more than that. And I find that extremely hard to believe given that those workplaces are clearly male-dominated.
Professor, University of Toronto, As an Individual
We know that the number of complaints is very, very small compared to the number of incidents typically, and often the fewer the complaints doesn't necessarily mean the lesser the harassment going on, as Professor Welsh pointed out. There might be more intimidation and fear of complaining going on.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Tilly O'Neill Gordon) Conservative Tilly O'Neill-Gordon
Thank you.
I want to thank all of the presenters we had here today for a great job. Well done, and now I'll now close the meeting.
The meeting is adjourned.