Status of Women Committee on April 18th, 2013

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

I don't know the rationale. It was some years back. I can speak to two that happened more recently, but on those ones way back when, I think the thought process was, and arguably from a legal perspective, that to take away their pay may have cost some of them their mortgage. It may be $30,000 or $40,000 a year depending on.... That's quite a big fine. You don't get that big a fine for impaired driving, for example, rightly or wrongly. That was probably the rationale.

We've had two in recent years: a sergeant who was an acting staff sergeant and a staff sergeant who was just about to be promoted to inspector, who had been approved. Both of them were denied their promotions. Actually, the acting staff sergeant was about to be promoted as well, and in the meantime things came to light that were proven in relation to workplace harassment issues of a sexual nature. Both of them lost their promotions, so they never did get their raise.

They were just about to get a raise of about 10%, so you're looking at an increase in pay of $10,000 or $15,000. It was lost and gone. They did not get their promotions over this very behaviour. They hadn't got their raise yet, so we weren't really taking away what had been a salary that they were used to for several years. It may be a little different circumstance. I certainly get your point. If I could snap my fingers and say you lose the pay too, then I would.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

One of the things that we've heard from many of the people who've come before the committee was about leadership. To have the right culture in any organization, it's about leadership, and it starts at the top. That's very admirable.

How often do you have sessions on sexual harassment and harassment and bullying among your various key staff members?

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

We call them NCOs, our sergeants and staff sergeants, and there's a number of conferences annually across the OPP. I can't say that there is always something on the agenda relating to this, but if there are any kinds of new issues or trends or anything that are being seen, that is communicated to them at that time. It's the same with our senior officers and all their meetings where the inspectors all get together. We have stuff on our internal website, our intranet site, that outlines all the policies. Anything new is flagged right away so that people will have to go in and read it.

We have Ontario public service training that often comes out annually, but not necessarily every year. We actually have to go in, go through a video, and answer questions online. It's tracked, so that if one of your employees does not read it and does not go through it and actually check the boxes—not just say they've read it—that is flagged to a supervisor. The supervisor makes sure that they go in and read it.

There are many other things that occur like that. I can't say that they happen every year, but a lot of that happens a lot in the organization, and right across the Ontario public service for much of that, not just within the OPP. It's out there a lot. Some think it happens too often; you know, “oh, another video”, but you know what? Sometimes any publicity ends up being a positive thing, whether the employee finds it negative or not. Our stats show that clearly we're doing something right, because our numbers are very low. But as I said, one is too many.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

A reminder is always good.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

Exactly, yes.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lewis.

We'll now move over to Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our guest today, our witness, for being here.

You were just talking about stats. You were saying that your stats show that something must be working. I've been writing down some of the statistics that you have given in your opening remarks. I seem to only have statistics written down for 2012 with regard to 11 alleged incidents and 10 that were substantiated. Have you kept any statistics prior to that? Can you tell us what the trends are year over year?

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

I don't have the statistics with me. We certainly kept the stats in the years prior to that. I'm told anecdotally that our stats are down, but I don't think we ever had a significant issue where, for example, let's say that hypothetically 1,000 employees put in complaints. I don't think we've ever had any huge spikes, but what I've been told, anecdotally once again, is that the trend continues to lower.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

This trend that you believe is going down year over year, with the incidents that are actually substantiated, is the severity of those incidents also going down? You said there were 10 that were substantiated. Could you give me examples of a less severe incident and the action taken against the employee versus the action taken after a more severe incident? What might have been the disciplinary action?

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

Certainly.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Obviously, you don't need to give names.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

I'm reluctant to say what's less severe, because to some people it may have been more upsetting than you might think just looking at the circumstances, because people are different.

Let's say a male supervisor asks a female constable that works for him out on a date and the constable, who may only have a year on the job, thinks that saying no to her supervisor might hurt her career. That is totally inappropriate and it would be dealt with, but it would be somewhat less serious to many than constant harassment, such as going to her home, calling her, sending her love letters by text or e-mail, which would be more on the serious side.

In the case of an acting staff sergeant who was going to be promoted to staff sergeant but lost his promotion over something similar—

[An hon. member]

Was that in 2012?

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

Actually it was a couple of years prior to that.

To put it into perspective in terms of being more serious, he was having an ongoing relationship. He was married; she was married. She was married to another officer. It was an ongoing relationship. She had mental health issues to deal with as a result, and a lot of things came to light during that. That cost him a promotion, and it's in his file for the rest of his career.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I'm glad you mentioned that again about a supervisor asking out another employee, someone subordinate to that person.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

Right.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

You mentioned earlier in one of your answers that an incident might be asking someone out and they don't really want that to happen again. Do you consider that in itself to be sexual harassment, or would it have to continue past the point of the person saying, “No, I'm not interested in you. Thank you, but I'm not interested“, and the person continues to persist after that.

I'm trying to find out because many people would not think that asking someone out on a date would be harassment.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

Right.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

When is the point when it becomes actual sexual harassment within the OPP?

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

I think it changes. It's a bit of a grey area when it comes to where the line is. A direct supervisor asking out an employee, in my view, is totally inappropriate. Someone of a higher rank asking out someone at a lower rank who works in a totally different area of the organization, that is just human nature, but if the individual knows it's unwelcome, then it better stop quick.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I'm glad you said that, because I ask this question from time to time to our witnesses regarding fraternization, dating, mingling, and so on. I know your wife is within the OPP, so I guess the answer is that it's allowed.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

We have a number of married couples.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

At least you've told everybody publicly now, so it must be allowed.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

I always thought it would be the other way around and I'd be of a lower rank, but....

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

You said something interesting. You said that you believe that someone in a supervisory or a management position should not be allowed to ask someone out who reports directly to him or through that chain.

I know you said you were governed by the Ontario public service, but has the OPP ever thought of implementing its own policy or modifying the policy or making some sort of a regulation that this is not permitted or it's frowned upon or it could lead to situations of sexual harassment? I ask this because I tend to agree with you, that when you're in a management position, with someone below you it could be deemed—