Status of Women Committee on May 2nd, 2013

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

A summary.

Now, I congratulate you on the work you would be doing with the YWCA, and for sure, you would certainly have had lots of opportunity to see what violence does cause and the effect it has on children. One of the items that is in this bill is that we consider “the best interests of any children who habitually reside in the family home, including the interest of any child who is a First Nation member to maintain a connection with that First Nation”.

That seems like a very important aspect, and I'm wondering what you have to say about that.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

A very short answer, please, Madam van der Woerd.

[Dr. Kim van der Woerd]

I'm sorry, could you repeat the last part?

Maintain connection with...?

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

The best interests of any children, in other words, should be considered as a result of a divorce. That's one of the factors in Bill S-2, and I'm wondering what your comment is on that. Do you consider that as an important factor?

[Dr. Kim van der Woerd]

Child protection is a very important factor, and children should have the opportunity to remain with their family whenever possible.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Thank you very much.

I'm turning now to Madam Ashton, for seven minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Ms. van der Woerd, just to double-check, do you have time? I was under the impression that you had to leave.

[Dr. Kim van der Woerd]

I do have to leave.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Sure.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Thank you very much for being here with us.

I'm sorry for the delay. We had votes, and we needed to delay our meeting.

Thank you very much for being with us, and we'll let you go.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you very much, from our side, Ms. van der Woerd. It's unfortunate that we didn't have the time to ask you questions, and so many important points were raised.

Mr. Cyr, there's no question that the friendship centres do really critical work with aboriginal women, men, and youth in many communities. I'm very proud for the chance I've had to work with friendship centres in the area that I represent. However, I've been concerned at times when the government hasn't been there to support the critical work, particularly with young people, for example.

Recognizing that this legislation is about on-reserve first nations, I think has somehow been lost in the fray. We've spent quite a bit of time hearing from the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, who don't represent on-reserve first nations. We've heard a lot of rhetoric. The reality is that we have to be clear about who this pertains to.

Now I'm wondering, in your experience in working with the friendship centres, in terms of bringing an on-the-ground perspective, could you speak to us about some of the reasons why people leave first nations, whether it's in Manitoba or across the country?

[Jeffrey Cyr]

The reasons make a pretty long list, but we'll try to put some of it in plain speak.

People have been migrating to cities from rural areas and reserves at a fairly rapid pace for the better part of 50 or 60 years. This is not a trend unique to Canada. It's happening around the world. People migrate for a couple of key reasons, usually it's driven by economics. You want a certain level of education, or you want a certain level of access to employment. As you well know, around the country, around certain reserves and rural communities, for Métis or Inuit as well, that opportunity doesn't exist. So you need to travel. You may come back to your community, but you need to travel to find those opportunities.

There are other reasons as well: health care. Where do you have access to health care and access to services more generally? This refers directly to Bill S-2 because people leave divorce and separation situations for a variety of reasons when they occur, and they need services. I know this. I was divorced six years ago. I went through the process, and it's not fun. There's not a lot of guidance, even if you're not aboriginal and aren't dealing with the complexities of a first nation's law or Indian Act law on reserve, and the complexities of inter-working that with provincial law as well.

For this committee, the problem exists of access to services for those people affected by Bill S-2, or affected both before and after Bill S-2's potential passing, and it's going to exist for a long time. One of the reasons is that it takes a long time to resolve marital and other spousal disputes on or off reserve. It takes years, and in those years you need service. Ninety days is nothing; 180 days is nothing in that situation.

So what do those people do? Their home community, whether it's a reserve or not, may not be a friendly place to be for 180 days.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

I think you're painting a picture that certainly those of us on the ground, who know first nation people who live on reserve.... Is one of the reasons that people leave the lack of housing? Even in marital breakups, or whatever breakup—family, children, adult children—do they come to friendship centres and urban centres seeking help? We're talking about the ones that friendship centres deal with, in part because they don't have anywhere to live on their reserve.

[Jeffrey Cyr]

Absolutely. I don't have specific numbers of those seeking housing, but a great majority of them come to friendship centres because in some areas they provide housing or they know where it's provided, and they act as a navigator for people in urban centres. So, yes, they come for housing. They may even come to ask where to get legal access, how to navigate the system, what to find for their kids: where is the child care, where can they go to school, what can I do? Housing has a whole bunch of ancillary things that go with it when you move.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Do you have questions around where women can access shelters or counselling?

[Jeffrey Cyr]

All the time. What I tried to get to in my comments, though probably a little more generally, is that people who live on reserve, whether facing issues of matrimonial real property or not, come to urban centres and ask where they do these things and how the city works. It's like a foreign country. It's like moving to Paris. Where do I get my basic services, and how do I live? That is not always crystal clear. There aren't always service centres where you can go and figure it out. That's what friendship centres were originally there to do. The original concept of a friendship centre is a familiar face with a familiar language who says you need that, you need to go over here, even if you're pointing at a United Way service, or a government service, or whatever it is. So it's that ability to help those who need help when they need it. That's why it's called friendship.

This is really a point about long-term planning. Legislative changes are fine, and I won't speak to the law and the legalities of Bill S-2 and how the bill is written. What we're speaking of here is the planning that comes both before and after that. How do we pick up the pieces?

Mixing social issues is very complex in the urban environment. I would suggest a lot of thinking has to go in as implementation happens about where people are going to get service. If you have a year's waiting period, that's going to be a busy year, I bet, for people to figure out how they are going to do this. Yes, a legal centre of excellence is proposed for first nations to access, and that's great, but there's a human component that I want to talk about, and that human component needs to figure it out. They're going to ask what happens in one year.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

Thank you very much.

I'm turning now to Madame Bateman for her seven minutes.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much for being here with us, Mr. Cyr.

I can speak first-hand, as a former school trustee, to the importance of your organization in Manitoba. We served many of the same children and families. You were the point of reference; you were the guiding hand. You often connected young women in distress and with young children to the Winnipeg school division, and I thank you very much for that.

The housing piece has been spoken of. Since 2006 we've put more than a billion dollars into aboriginal housing through Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada. In 2009 through to 2011, we increased that by an additional $400 million. There was another Aboriginal Affairs allocation of $150 million. There was a CMHC $150 million allocation in that period of time, and about $143 million is spent annually by CMHC to support specific needs of aboriginal households off reserve. As well, the Canadian economic action plan put another $200 million into this. So there is money going into houses.

But in your remarks, sir, you made the comment that people are escaping domestic violence. Regardless of the house, if you have no rights to stay in that house with your children, if you're thrown out of the house as a result of a conflict, organizations such as yours are crucial in the urban setting.

You've talked about how you are reaching out to these people, and another witness, who has gone now, earlier talked about aboriginal women being three times more subject to domestic violence. This is what we're trying to help with. This is what we're trying to achieve, and it seems to me that you are, too. You're supporting these people.

How do we best work together on this?

[Jeffrey Cyr]

Thanks for the question.

Unfortunately, I return to the issue that there are many complexities.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Oh, I really do respect that.

[Jeffrey Cyr]

There are some resources. I don't think there are enough, whether on the housing side.... Especially in the off-reserve setting, I think there is more work to be done. Although some investment has happened over the last number of years, I think we may just be shaving off the tip of that iceberg. I think there's a lot more that needs to be done in an urban setting for affordable, sustainable housing for low-income families.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

What we're trying to address is the challenge that, on reserve, women do not have rights.

I just had a conversation with my son last night. He's 21. I told him what we were working on. He was incredulous that women in this day and age do not have matrimonial property rights. He said, “I hope you can fix that, Mom.” Well, we all hope we can fix it.

But you are talking about the need for off-reserve help. We're talking about ensuring that these women and children don't have to have their lives disrupted, that they get to stay on reserve, if that is their choice. The fact that their marriage breaks up—this happens in the world—doesn't mean that they have to become homeless.

Quite frankly, you and I both know that some of these young women have turned to prostitution just to survive when they go to the city.

[The Chair, NDP, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe]

I have a point of order being raised.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

On a point of order, with all the greatest respect, we just had witnesses earlier who talked about matrimonial property arrangements on reserves where women—

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Well, I'm talking to this witness—