Status of Women Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2011

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I'm just wondering if one of the aspects is that the person who has been abused or is suffering physical abuse might feel that the person who's doing the abusing, whether it's a close family member or someone outside, will not be punished justifiably if apprehended by law enforcement and the abuse might return at some point in the future.

Do you think that's a reason why someone might be leery about reporting it? In case the abuser returns to the home or the situation and the abuse continues or even gets worse...?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

I think it's one of those things where it's on an individual basis. Especially when it's very personal in nature, individuals, for a variety of reasons, make complaints or do not. That could certainly be a factor. But I would be generalizing about why one would be more prominent than another as far as people reporting or not reporting is concerned.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I know that you touched on the Criminal Code of Canada, and there are certainly a lot of laws there that are not necessarily enforced. A previous witness indicated they were really shocked that age was not considered to be a factor in sentencing for crimes against seniors. Many seniors, given their age, are more vulnerable physically and mentally and are not necessarily able to defend themselves from physical abuse, neglect, or even financial abuse. Would you agree that age is not really considered in sentencing within the court system?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

The RCMP maintains a victim assistance policy that requires members to inform victims of the services provided by victim services and to make an offer for referral with consent. I speak to that specifically because this refers to any person or group that is susceptible to physical or emotional injury: a person who is vulnerable because of their age, disability, or other circumstances, whether temporary or permanent, and is in a position of dependence.

Whether it's through victim services or the investigation itself, a person's age could very well be referenced in the court documents presented to crown counsel. On where it goes from there, I'm not in a position to speak to that, of course, because that's in the Department of Justice.

[The Chair, NDP, Niki Ashton]

We're out of time, Ms. James.

Thank you very much.

Is there somebody from the NDP who has a question?

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Sure, I'll take a quick question.

I imagine that you are sometimes faced with situations where what's happening is not really a crime. For instance, in this elder abuse suspicion index, they say that one of the ways to identify elder abuse, as it's defined broadly, is to ask, “Have you been upset because someone talked to you in a way that made you feel shamed or threatened?” That is abuse, but it's not a crime. There might be neglect when no one is there to take care of the person, or poverty, or isolation in living in rural areas where there isn't really the ability to get to services, etc. What do you do when you're faced with those situations?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

When we receive a call for service, regardless of the nature of the call it's important that whichever police person responds takes into consideration all of those factors. That's where victim services, whether within a police agency, the community, or elsewhere, certainly have the opportunity to link that in.

It's also where we rely very heavily on our partnerships. If we recognize that there are things that don't perhaps reach the threshold for Criminal Code investigation or won't likely result in charges, we definitely make sure that we rely on our partnerships. Whether it's health services or another agency, we can look at addressing the unique needs of the individual.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Our task is to get rid of senior abuse, but crime legislation is not really going to address the problem. I'm getting the sense that there needs to be a holistic approach to giving seniors access to services. Maybe the government could be facilitating you in doing that. Do you have a comment on that?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Madam Chair, essentially it goes back to one of the comments I made earlier with respect to the RCMP and policing, and specifically crime prevention and community policing. It's really about utilizing the community as a whole to respond. Regardless of the individual and the background and so forth, it's not just an RCMP issue, it's a community issue, and we have to respond in that manner.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'm okay, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, Niki Ashton]

You can have two minutes.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

In regard to utilizing the community, do you often find that the resources on the ground, the resources you need in order to do the kind of job you want, are thin? Do we need more resources on the ground in terms of the kind of abuse that my colleague has referenced?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Generally speaking, depending upon the area and location, we certainly have been able to respond accordingly. I think we can always use more resources regardless of the community we're in.

I do recognize, having provided policing services within small northern communities myself, that you utilize the people who are in the community in addressing the root issues.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is that lack of resources, or perhaps that need for extra resources, something that we would find in northern remote aboriginal communities? We've been talking a great deal in this committee about violence against aboriginal women. Certainly seniors fall into that category. I wondered if that was something you might be aware of or could comment on.

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Madam Chair, that's where we rely heavily on our partnerships. We recognize that policing is certainly just one piece of the approach.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Niki Ashton]

Thank you very much.

We do have a couple of minutes left. Would somebody like to take that?

Go ahead, Mr. Holder.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you.

With regard to reporting of seniors abuse, when there is a claim from an elderly person about abuse, is laying a charge against an alleged perpetrator mandatory? How does that process work?

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Madam Chair, it completely depends upon the nature of the complaint, the type of abuse. Certainly if it's violence in a relationship, then there is a mandatory piece that we will respond to accordingly. There are other alternatives. The approach from the RCMP really depends upon the type of abuse.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

You see, I was thinking about that, and you know, with things like fraud, if you can track and follow the paper trail, that's one thing. With severe physical abuse, there might well be obvious signs. But when it comes to other forms of abuse, especially when you're dealing with somebody who is quite elderly or who may have mental health issues...which regrettably are often more common with some older persons.

I'm just trying to get a sense of how hard it is to deal with someone in that situation in terms of establishing a level of proof. That has to be a tremendously challenging thing.

[C/Supt Brenda Butterworth-Carr]

Again, Madam Chair, it would be completely dependent upon the situation. It's very difficult to respond to what are in essence hypothetical situations. It depends upon the level of abuse and the multiple factors associated with it.

If there is a disability, then we would use services to interact appropriately. If there is a language issue, then we would draw upon other services to respond to that. It really depends upon the actual incident itself.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Yes, and--

[The Chair, NDP, Niki Ashton]

That brings us to 5:30, Mr. Holder.

Thank you very much for your presentations, Ms. Butterworth-Carr and Ms. McMorrow.

Before I forget, I'm wondering if we could ask for all the materials you referenced earlier related to the elder abuse module used in training the cadets. That, with the other information, would really help us with the study we're undertaking here. You can forward that to the clerk.

Mr. Holder.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Before we wrap up, Madam Chair, I'd like to officially welcome our two newest members to the committee--Ms. Mathyssen, who I know very well from the tenth-largest city in Canada, and Ms. Brosseau.

We're delighted to have you here.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!