Status of Women Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2015

[Todd Minerson]

I would submit to you the names of two organizations that might be great witnesses on this issue. They are doing, in my view, really exceptional work with men who have used violence.

One is from London, Ontario. It's an organization called Changing Ways. They are looking at a holistic approach that's far, far beyond just the traditional anger management approaches. Another is the Bridges Institute in Halifax. Again, they're looking at more narrative experiences that hold men accountable for their actions, but they also try to understand the underlying trauma, pain, and hostility that caused the men to make some of those choices around using violence.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

To summarize, then, I gather that the work has to happen at the ground level with the partner organizations already in place before addressing the situation in court or raising minimum sentences. That is what I took away from your comments.

Would that be correct?

[Rosemary McCarney]

Absolutely.

[Jane Doe]

Yes.

[Todd Minerson]

Yes.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you, Ms. Sellah.

I'd like a point clarified, please.

You seem to be saying that restorative justice works in some cases, but not in the case of domestic violence because of the intimate relationship between the couple. Is that a fair statement?

[Voices]

Yes.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much for clarifying that.

Ms. Truppe, you have seven minutes.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

Madam Chair, depending on how long the answers are, I'll be sharing my time with Madam Crockatt.

Rosemary, the questions that I have are for you.

I think you said that there are over one million Canadians who want a safer world for girls. Is that right? Yes.

Do you have a plan to increase the number so that maybe it's 1.5 million? How are you getting these million?

[Rosemary McCarney]

I love growth trajectories for sure.

We are actually out there every day and every hour with our Because I am a Girl campaign. We are working in hundreds of schools across the country where girls are initiating their own actions and activities. We're very active on social media and in blogs. Also, we're publishing another portal to get to young children about attitudes that start very young. We're about to publish our third book in the children's literature category on young girls and boys taking action when they see things that are wrong in their communities.

I wouldn't stop at 1.5 million. I'd like to double that number.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

I didn't want to scare you by saying two million.

You also mentioned the Because I Am A Girl campaign. I do love that campaign. I think it's great. I've had the opportunity to go to the United Nations during the status of women conferences for the last few years. Everybody is so positive about it.

You said that you're working with the Y across the country. Is there a best practice that you would like to share, for instance, something that's worked that you've done with the Y?

[Rosemary McCarney]

Sure.

Best practice is always contextualized to communities and the readiness of young people to participate. Sometimes you have to lay the conditions and create a safe space where young people can feel that they can participate and be respected for views that may not be in the mainstream. I think of the Y, organizations like Girls Inc., and what the White Ribbon campaign is doing. I think one of the best practices that we all use is allowing young people to be heard. We hear their voices. We're not there to convey good information adult to child, or adult to adolescent. It's about laying the table and facilitating the space where they can actually speak and be heard in a place of respect and safety.

We published a report called “Hear Our Voices”. Young girls across the world, including in Canada, said, “Listen to us. We have important things to say. Sometimes we don't think you're listening, and sometimes perhaps we're not in a place where we can speak loudly enough.”

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I have a final question before I turn it over to Madam Crockatt.

You had mentioned the $146 million for 120 programs across Canada. Are these separate programs? Is this not including the Y's program? Do you have a best practice from all these programs as well?

[Rosemary McCarney]

Since 2007, $146 million has been invested to support 720 community-based programs across the country, with nearly half of those dedicated to ending violence against women and girls. I believe that people are trying to do what's right, provide funding, and to learn, etc., but if they're tiny perfect projects that never get joined up, I don't think we're getting the return on that investment that we absolutely need and that we owe to these girls and women.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

That's a lot of programs.

Ms. Crockatt.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you for sharing your time with me.

I want to delve a tiny bit more into the idea of rape versus sexual assault.

Jane Doe, you mentioned it at the beginning of your testimony and sort of left it hanging. I'd like to hear what your thoughts are. As I'm sure you're aware, some people believe that people treat sexual assault far too lightly, because they think it could just be a brush-by in the elevator; therefore, they don't treat those crimes as significant, life changing, and societally changing as they perhaps would be. Others don't like the idea of going to the word “rape”.

What are your thoughts are on that, please?

[Jane Doe]

We do use the terms interchangeably just to register the contested nature of that language, which is not specific to sexual assault. The legislation, as you know, was enacted in about 1984, which changed the terminology from rape to sexual assault and three categories were constructed.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Yes, for that reason.

[Jane Doe]

It needs to be revisited and certainly anyone working in that area would agree that it needs to be revisited. What has happened is that we've taken violence out of sexual assault, out of rape, and we are presently in a condition where sexual assault three, third level, which means a weapon has been used, can be argued down in court to a sexual assault one. It's the same with two; it can be argued down to one. I think we need to focus more on the fact that rapes are argued down to one as opposed to what we are hearing, that one is not serious enough.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay.

[Jane Doe]

I think any woman would tell you that. I think we've gotten into a situation where one woman's rape is more violent or is different from another woman's, and the legislation has supported that and created that. It was seen as progressive at the time. Certainly many feminists—a word none of us uses today, including myself—were extremely active in drafting that legislation. It's no longer effective for the reasons that I have indicated.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much for that.

I want to ask Rosemary a question about data.

You've talked about data. We have also heard testimony here today about the difficulties because a very small number of women will report. How much of our efforts do you want to be spent on trying to collect data, or do you think we're better to move ahead on the things that we know are working?

I see that Jane has her hand up as well, but could I ask you that first? This is always the challenge for us: where is our money most effectively placed? In this particular area, it's a tough one for us to get any kind of data that looks in any way accurate.

[Rosemary McCarney]

I think that if we don't have good data, a couple of things happen. We don't close the door on “that can't be”, so we can't end the debate about what is actually happening and the pervasiveness of violence against women and girls in the country. Without data we're vulnerable to having to constantly debate. Is it that bad? Is it really happening here? Is it really happening with young girls? Did one in four girls under 16 really say they were sexually assaulted?

It's a constant discussion that we should have moved beyond, so I think it's important.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Is the data any better than polling though?

[Rosemary McCarney]

No, I think data has to be both qualitative and quantitative because it's a way for the young people, girls and women, to have their voices heard. When they want to be anonymous, they can be anonymous and still report what happened to her. Well done qualitative and quantitative data is fundamental and it underlies how we make good investments with scarce resources. We will not have finite resources for this.