Evidence of meeting #108 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nomination.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you very much to all of our witnesses for being here today.
I'll start by saying, Sylvia, that I very much support your work in regard to violence against women. I'm the former Alberta South Chapter chair of Equal Voice. I'm very fortunate to have had many pieces published over the years as a result of several roles I've played, but I'm most proud of the December 17, 2015, article entitled “Death threats risk silencing democracy”. It was published in both the Calgary Herald and the Edmonton Journal with my counterpart at that time, Ms. Lana Cuthbertson. Thank you very much for your work on that.
Jane, I will always answer the Samara surveys that come out. You will never get a non-response from me. With that, in your report “It's My Party”, you mentioned that one of the problems members of Parliament face in the party system is frustration on how their work is evaluated. This is a direct quote:
Many MPs voiced disappointment when the criteria for promotions, particularly to cabinet posts, were not explained. Even though most MPs acknowledged the importance of balance in gender, region and ethnicity in promotion decisions, several said that too many appointments were undeserved.
Can you please elaborate on this and the concerns with awarding promotions to politicians without merit or necessary experience?
Executive Director, Samara Centre for Democracy
In our exit interviews we try to show the voices of MPs, so this is me reading into what we've heard in the past.
One big point we find in our surveys generally is that for MPs, the career ladder at Parliament is very strict. There are not many options, other than trying to get into cabinet. That's how you climb. That's how you are seen to accrue greater influence in policy-making, so everyone wants it, and of course there are limited spots. I think many MPs have a view that they have something to offer. Many of them do, but when it comes to decision-making in parties—I think this is universal across parties—a lot of decisions happen in opaque ways.
It kind of goes back to my point about nominations being a black box. As MPs, you don't really have a good idea as to what is being weighed in a decision made by your party leadership at all times.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Thank you, Jane, for that very honest answer.
Louise, what a joy and a pleasure to see you here again in this capacity after our time together on Equal Voice. I want to congratulate you on your book. The review I saw said that your style is “earnest and academic” with “tantalizing glimpses” into the life of pursuing political office for women.
I'll use some quotes from the review by Rosemary Speirs, who of course was the founder of Equal Voice:
Others, including many party recruiters, suggest women themselves are opting out of a game they perceive as too rough. “We seem to eat our own women alive in this country,” said a former party insider whom Carbert interviewed.
It also states:
We know from anecdotal evidence across Canada that...high-profile incidents [have] a...depressing effect on aspiring women.
Have particular incidents of publicly ostracizing women in politics perpetuated the fears of women wanting to run for office, in your opinion?
Prof. Louise Carbert
Public ostracism? From my interview results, no, I don't think public ostracism is at stake. I think that's more relevant to what Dr. Bashevkin has been saying, so no.
Conservative
Prof. Sylvia Bashevkin
The research on women at the provincial level, where we've had women party leaders who've often come out of cabinet, suggests that, first of all, there's a problem with women's recognition in many fields, not just politics. Knowing how you move up is often not clear. One problem suggested by Canadian research as well as comparative research is that party insiders are often using different metrics to assess the effectiveness of women versus men politicians.
Look at women politicians at the provincial level, some of whom managed to win majority governments for their parties. I think of Catherine Callbeck in P.E.I. and Kathy Dunderdale in Newfoundland. Kathleen Wynne in Ontario did win a majority government, which we often forget. The impatience of party insiders with these women is significantly greater than it is for men in the same position, just as there's the assumption that we can never have another woman leader. In other words, all women are therefore guilty of her supposed ineffectiveness, yet we never hear people say that we'll never have another male leader because he lost us power or caused the party to be weakened.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Thank you very much, Sylvia, for that comment.
Louise, my apologies. Perhaps I didn't provide enough examples from your book in referencing these negative experiences. The Atlantic women pointed to the fate of the only female prime minister, Kim Campbell, who lasted less than five months, and who was set up, as they saw it, to be the fall guy. They cited the battering of former Liberal cabinet minister Jane Stewart, knocked down by media during the Human Resources and Development Canada scandals as she took heat for a male predecessor, and the sympathy for MP Elsie Wayne of Saint John, criticized by the national media for her sweaters, of all things, purchased in New Brunswick.
One woman said, “The store that sells her clothing was very put out. They said she dresses very classical”, so no further comments on that.
Prof. Louise Carbert
When I was thinking of ostracism, I was thinking of ostracism within the local community among their peers that they interacted with every day—
Conservative
Prof. Louise Carbert
No, that's fine. It's been a long time since I've read Rosemary Speirs' review.
What I was referring to there was what I think I called the “cautionary tales”. There are some real threats and barriers, but I also think there are stories that women tell to each other that are cautionary tales about the dangers of politics, and I think they're overrated.
One of the problems here is that I don't think politicians communicate about the fulfilling work that they do. Instead we see them lambasted on the national media and they identify with Elsie Wayne or they identify with Jane Stewart in those circumstances and think, “I could never withstand that kind of pressure.” I wrote that what they don't see is Jane Stewart going back behind caucus and being cheered as a hero among her peers there.
It was suspicion about cautionary tales that we tell each other.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
—so we're going to stop you. Sorry about this.
Irene, it's over to you for seven minutes now.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you very much for the breadth of information you've provided. It connects brilliantly. I know we're going to be able to write a very substantive and helpful report based on what you are saying.
I have a question that's maybe a little bit political. To what degree would a system of proportional representation help, if at all, to elect more women? Would that have the kind of desired effect that we've been talking about?
Prof. Louise Carbert
I'll start out very briefly. The committee on electoral reform dealt with this last summer at great length, and my impression from my colleagues' presentations was that proportional representation does not directly guarantee that more women will be elected. It might in some countries. Those are countries with a strong tradition of social democracy. In short, I would say that it's social democracy in those electoral systems that's propelling the election of women, rather than the electoral system per se.
As there are expanding numbers of democracies around the world, we're starting to see more variation in the patterns of women elected in those electoral systems.
Prof. Sylvia Bashevkin
I would say that proportional representation probably would help numbers of women in Canadian politics, but having watched this debate unfold over many, many decades, I don't think it's going anywhere as a solution any more than I think that quotas are going anywhere.
I think what we really have to work on is transparency in the nominations process, because it seems to me that Canadians are really not showing much appetite for the sorts of institutional design discussions that we would need to actually get either PR or quotas.
Chair, Political Science, Douglas College, As an Individual
I would say that PR systems are more likely to lead to an increase in women's representation, but typically when they're supported by quotas and there is some kind of quota in place, they kind of go hand in hand. Also, it always comes down to the will of the party. There are countries that use PR and women's representation is still low, so it really comes down to the party's will.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
You're saying it's the will of the party, the leadership, the decision to make sure that women are on these lists and that they have been given a fair shake. I think we come back to the culture of the leadership within any party, which I think is interesting.
We know that quota systems have a bad name. I can tell you that I introduced a bill some years ago that would have required crown corporations to have 50% female representation on their board. It went down in flames.
My question, then, is about financial incentives.
Jeanette, you've talked about financial incentives. Have you considered what kind of financial incentives might be most useful?
