Status of Women Committee on June 14th, 2018

[Deborah Grey]

I was always asked that question, “What's it like to be a female member of Parliament?” I'd say, “I don't really know, because I've never been anything else.” That's all I have.

I have mentors. Agnes Macphail, whose bust was put up near the lobby while I was here, was an amazing woman. That was very long ago—I think in 1922. Some male MP said to her, “Agnes, have you ever been mistaken for a man?” and she said, “No, have you?” That, to me, is a wonderful woman who has the confidence to be able to defuse these potentially ugly situations with humour.

I was blessed in my career to be able to do that when being attacked. I had someone on the street in Radway, Alberta, say to me, “Well, you look smart, but you have two things against you. You're a schoolteacher, and you're a woman.” Just about the only regret in my entire political career is that I didn't get his name and address, because I wanted to phone him but I didn't know who he was.

So be capable and confident. Just do it.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Deb, what are the things that we can do, as female members of Parliament, to help encourage other women to consider this as a role? You only have about 30 seconds.

[Deborah Grey]

Okay.

Go find people. Say, “We want you to run on merit. You happen to be a woman, but we think you would be good because you have capabilities. Throw your name forward, and leave it to the great unwashed to see how it goes.”

How did I do for time?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Pam Damoff]

Very well.

[Deborah Grey]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Pam Damoff]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Anne for seven minutes.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First, I would like to apologize to everyone for being late. I was listening to Thomas Mulcair's speech, since today is his last day. He was a great leader, and was my leader for several years, so I wanted to say goodbye in person.

So here I am. I missed all of your presentations, but I am trying to catch up on what I missed through my colleagues' questions.

I wish I could say that women and men are treated fairly and equally in politics and that women do not need much help, but the fact is that women hold just 27% of the seats in the House of Commons in 2018, and just over 30% at the municipal level. You provided a few figures about their representation provincially. In reality, women do not necessarily come forward as candidates of their own imitative. It has also been shown that ads do not provide enough positive female role models.

Ms. Mailloux, I would like to hear your thoughts about female role models. Are there enough of them?

From what I heard, you spoke about mentoring. In 2017, at the municipal level, there were various groups that trained women to encourage them to run for office.

Do you think this kind of tool should be better organized and made available to women? In my own case, I did not make the decision myself to run for office. I did it because a friend convinced me. In the end, I thought why not. I am sure there are many other women in this situation. Finally, it is an exceptionally stimulating experience. If no one had pushed me to become a candidate, however, I would never have thought of doing it myself.

You talked about quotas. Not everyone around the table agrees with that, and that is fine. In Rwanda, for instance, 60% of the people who ran for office were women. It does seem, however, that the quotas imposed in various countries have had a major impact.

Can you give us your thoughts on this?

[Thérèse Mailloux]

I will start by answering your last question.

The data gathered in various parts of the world clearly show that where there are quotas... Actually, not all countries are successful because quotas are always imposed in a specific context, in a country with a specific history and specific traditions. So the results can vary greatly.

In general, the top 20 or 30 countries on the Inter-Parliamentary Union list have quotas prescribed by law or in their constitution, or quotas the parties impose on themselves. In the Nordic countries of Iceland, Finland, Sweden, and Norway, for instance, it is the political parties themselves that imposed the quotas. Behind all that is a history that we do not have, but those countries have been striving for equality for a hundred years. So even if they do not have quotas prescribed by law, it is nearly as strong.

Once again, I truly believe that the political parties hold the key to change and that it should be up to them. Too often, the burden is placed on women to enter politics, but they are up against millennia of systemic barriers that make it very difficult for them to run for office, for a whole host of reasons that everyone here knows and that I will not repeat.

The parties have to break the mould, as I said in my presentation. They have to take a different approach. They need to do more than simply wait, as they are doing, because while they are trying to convince one woman, there are 10 men lining up to be elected. It often takes a bit longer to convince women to run. They also have to plan their entry into politics much longer in advance. In short, different and modern methods are needed and different networks must be used. We know very well that men and women are not necessarily in the same environments. Women have not necessarily acquired management responsibilities in the same arenas as men. So the parties have to make that effort. That answers your first question.

As to mentoring, I would like Ms. Lapointe to talk about that because she has done a lot of mentoring of aspiring women politicians.

[Esther Lapointe, Director General, Groupe Femmes, Politique et Démocratie]

Thank you, Ms. Mailloux.

I would like to remind the audience that Canada ranks 60th in the world as to the representation of women in politics. Until recently, France was quite close, between 50th and 60th place. Thanks to the parity law that France passed recently, it is now in the top 15 countries. This does have an impact and studies have shown it. Ms. Mailloux talked about the study by Manon Tremblay, a political scientist at the University of Ottawa, who is known around the world for her work on this topic. All the studies show that the political parties' selection and recruitment of candidates are the key to parity.

We have talked about mentoring, training, support, and various types of assistance for women. As Ms. Mailloux said earlier, our group has been doing this for 20 years. We started at the municipal level for a very simple reason: they had fixed election dates. Now all levels of government have fixed election dates. This is very good news for democracy, but also for women because they need more time to prepare.

Because of the way we were socialized, we have been accustomed from birth to playing a role in the private sphere as opposed to the public sphere, unlike boys. That has an impact on how we react later in life.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Your time is up.

[Esther Lapointe]

Okay.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Pam Damoff]

We're now going to Mr. Fraser for seven minutes.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Excellent.

Thanks very much, Madam Chair.

I'm going to split my time with Mr. Fisher, so if we could keep the answers short so I don't eat up his whole clock, that would be greatly appreciated.

First, I'm really interested in the idea of how we can better recruit those capable, competent women who are out there—and they are out there in great numbers across Canada. I was really interested in my colleague from the NDP's comment about needing to be asked to run.

We heard in a panel during our previous meeting that it's a more natural occurrence for men to just kind of assume that they're destined for politics and leadership, whereas women more likely need to be encouraged to take that step, even though they may be every bit as qualified to do so.

Ms. Grey, you gave some advice for potentially the women who is competent, who is capable.

I'm curious, Ms. Bernard and Ms. Grey, to hear if you have thoughts on what we could recommend to the government that they could do to help more of those women who are capable and qualified to come forward.

[Joanne Bernard]

In 2011, in Nova Scotia, the Status of Women for Nova Scotia held a campaign school. There were about 67 to 70 women. Out of that school, out of that graduating class over a weekend where we learned strategies about campaigns, politics, and everything you need to know about politics, came a cabinet minister, an NDP MLA, a mayor of Yarmouth, and two other women who weren't successful. It's imperative that governments across the country, provincially in scope, do campaign schools and bring in completely non-partisan speakers and tell it like it is.

We had one in Nova Scotia two weeks ago. There were 160 women from all walks of life there, who will eventually put their name on a ballot or will eventually support women who will do that. That networking is absolutely crucial. The mentoring is second to none. I can't emphasize that enough.

[Deborah Grey]

I agree with her.

I'm sure you and I have done any number of campaign schools, so this is good. I know that the Manning Centre out in Calgary runs one for small-c conservatives—but it's as non-partisan as you can be when someone is going to run for a party—to be able to give just basic campaigning skills, basic networking skills. That's really good.

I heard a story over coffee last night of a women who was running on the Liberal ticket in Toronto. She just got pounded down because they wanted the seat for someone else—a fellow—who was more special. Guess what—he won. That made me really sad.

Without any partisanship, when any woman puts her name forward and looks like she's going to be okay, and then either a man or a woman says, “No, you can't do that. Why did you do that? It would be more competitive for us” or “It will not be good because you'll be there, but I want my star candidate here who happens to be a male”.... Shame.

Teach them. Encourage them. Mentor them.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Excellent. I'll give the remaining time to Mr. Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thanks, Madam Chair. Thank you very much, Sean.

Minister, or Joanne—sorry, old habits die hard—I want to thank you for your work in politics, but also your work before politics in the non-profit sector and since with Easter Seals. I've already seen the changes you've made in Easter Seals and it's incredibly positive.

[Joanne Bernard]

Thank you.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

You outlined a letter from when you were on the campaign trail. I know you inferred and maybe made reference to some more hatred and homophobia that came your way after you were a minister and a brand new MLA, both at the same time. I'm interested in how that affected you. Did that strengthen your resolve? Did it right away beat you down to the point where you thought I can't do this and then it strengthened your resolve?

Ms. Grey said “DSI”, don't sweat it. When you're a new minister, a new MLA, and a new politician, did that strengthen your resolve? Did it beat you down? Can you outline the process? Then, because I'll probably run out of time and I know you keep in touch with many women in politics right now in several groups, do you know of examples where this type of hatred might drive people out of politics?

[Joanne Bernard]

I do. In terms of the homophobia, it was very difficult for my family. Somebody once asked me, “Why don't more gay men or women run for politics?” In addition to all the stuff we may deal with because of our gender or something else, that's just one added target. It was a very difficult time.

The other difficulty was the sexism, the “She's gained weight, clearly she doesn't go to a food bank,” or “She's a retarded c-word”, and the death threats. Those all add up on somebody's psyche.

Nobody knew before I went into politics that I had a 20-year eating disorder. I didn't want to talk about it as a female politician because that, to me, was a sign of weakness and I didn't want anyone to see me as weak. We've talked to NDP MLAs who have been sexually abused as children or had violence against them as adult women, and then they will get a threat online about taking them out back and raping them. Those trigger the experiences that women have in their lives, and we've seen it in Nova Scotia. We've seen the cyber-bullying. We've all lived through Rehtaeh Parsons.

It's more insidious. It appears to be directed at women of perceived power. Whether that is your sexual orientation, your colour, your weight, how you dress, how you look, how you speak, it's more personal with women, much more personal with women, but that doesn't make us victims.

Fighting back, every time I got one of those stupid trolling pieces of garbage on Twitter, and 99% came from men, I would screenshot it and then I would tweet it out hoping that that man's mother, wife, sister, daughter would recognize it. There are all kinds of ways that we can cope, but it always bothered me and I didn't want to get that thick skin.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Pam Damoff]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to Ms. Kusie for five minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses here today.

Deb Grey, I remember being in the war room with you in 1997 where we sang together “'We gotta sink the Bismarck”. We didn't, but it was a good time.

Deb, we had the first female prime minister, first female leader of the official opposition, and as a former diplomat I say very proudly, the first female foreign affairs minister. Why? Why have Conservative women led the way in positions of leadership and on their own merit?

[Deborah Grey]

Kim Campbell was prime minister, as you said, in 1993. I think our current Prime Minister forgot to mention her one time when he was talking about how people have done so well.

I, Rona Ambrose, and you mentioned others, you as a diplomat—I'm pretty impressed by that. Why do they forget to mention it or why don't we mention it more, all of us as women regardless of party? We should, because it wasn't just the quota system where we're going to put you here. It wasn't you're attractive or you're not too heavy—I've struggled with weight, as well, over the years—or your earrings.... It's ridiculous, and all of us know those things. Prove them wrong. As we do that, we want competent people. I don't want somebody as a ditz to be up there and then have to defend her because she's a woman. Frankly, I really don't.

The capable people, all of whom have done a great job over the years regardless of party.... Alexa McDonough was there before Thomas Mulcair. I sat in the House with her. There's Audrey McLaughlin. I was there long ago when Audrey was there. These are capable women who did a good job in leadership. We need to celebrate them all regardless of party.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Deb, speaking of body image, I don't mean to open old wounds, but you were referred to by the former Liberal MP, Doug Young, as “more than a slab of bacon”, yet you showed up here today talking about “I don't do stress; I do life” and “See it through. Get it done”.

What are the core values that differentiate women in politics from deciding to be victims or deciding to be victors?

[Deborah Grey]

Yes, that was a hard day. I was talking about pork-barrelling. I thought somebody was spending too much money, so I asked about pork-barrelling. Poor Doug, who sat up in the left-hand corner with me when I was first elected, said into the mike loudly, “There is more than a slab of bacon talking there.”

That hurts. It hurts dreadfully, but I thought it said a whole lot more about him than it did about me. That was unfortunate for him. It was sad for me and tough, but you get through it, don't you?

I could have said, “Oh, it's terrible”, and I could have run to the media and said I'm offended, or I'm this or that. What a waste of breath that would be. Why don't I just carry on? To say those kinds of things about my earrings, or my weight, or what I am wearing today.... Guys, you're lucky. You just have to change your ties, so you really are lucky.

We do get criticized for that, but if I'm going to be a victim, everything is going to bother me. Instead I think, “No, I don't want to do that. I want to be blessed. I want to enjoy every day, and I want to do the best I can.” Because of that, I promised myself and everyone else in my constituency and the country that I will be victorious, no matter what.