Evidence of meeting #133 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was seniors.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Vice-Chair  Ms. Irene Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP)
Luce Bernier  President, Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées
Danis Prud'homme  General Manager, Provincial Secretariat, Réseau FADOQ
Sonia Sidhu  Brampton South, Lib.
Salma Zahid  Scarborough Centre, Lib.
K. Kellie Leitch  Simcoe—Grey, CPC
Catherine Twinn  Lawyer, As an Individual
Wanda Morris  Chief Advocacy and Engagement Officer, West Coast, CARP
Laura Kadowaki  Policy Researcher, West Coast, CARP
Madeleine Bélanger  As an Individual

8:50 a.m.

The Vice-Chair Ms. Irene Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP)

Good morning and welcome to the 133rd meeting of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women. This is a televised meeting.

Today we will continue our study of the challenges faced by senior women with a focus on the factors contributing to their poverty and vulnerability.

For this meeting, we are very pleased to welcome, from l'Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées, Luce Bernier, president, and Geneviève Tremblay-Racette, director. We also have, from Réseau FADOQ, Danis Prud'homme, general manager, provincial secretariat and Philippe Poirier-Monette, collective rights adviser, provincial secretariat.

I'll now turn to Luce Bernier for her opening statement. You have seven minutes. We're cutting back.

Go ahead for seven minutes, s'il vous plaît.

8:50 a.m.

Luce Bernier President, Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées

Madam Chair and members of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, I'm very pleased to be meeting with you today on behalf of the Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées, or AQDR for short. Joining me is Geneviève Tremblay-Racette, chair of AQDR Outaouais.

I'd like to begin with some background on our provincial association, which has existed for more than 35 years. Our mission is to advocate for seniors, retirees and early retirees. We have more than 25,000 members and 43 local and regional branches across Quebec. The AQDR amalgamates the requests of Quebec seniors and passes them on to appropriate authorities like you on their behalf.

The AQDR has a dynamic vision for aging, one of fulfillment, where seniors can take control of their own lives, grow and engage with their community. We strive to play a leadership role in defending the rights of seniors because we offer that distinct perspective. Doing so is our sole mission.

I am going to share some observations on the status of women, but first, I'd like to give you a few statistics for Quebec, which you are probably already familiar with. According to Quebec's statistics agency, the Institut de la statistique du Québec, the province is home to just over 1.5 million seniors, 54% being women and 46% being men. National statistics confirm that more women than men make up the over 65 population as well as the over 85 population.

This demographic shift has long been known. In Quebec, 30 out of 100 people are under the age of 25 and 34 out of 100 are over 65. Despite some initial efforts, governments and agencies need to move quickly to implement comprehensive measures to support seniors as agents of change in society. After all, seniors have a long list of accomplishments. They still have much to say and contribute to society and can indeed be agents of change.

I will say that, in Canada and Quebec, the concept of gender equality has evolved significantly in the last 50 years. However, much work remains in order to translate equality under the law into real equality. The AQDR wishes to highlight inequalities such as violence against women, including senior women, some of whom live in shelters for battered women. Other inequalities include gender stereotypes, low gender diversity in education and the workplace, difficulties balancing family and work, and the under-representation of women in decision-making.

The AQDR believes in the concept of healthy aging. This concept was adopted by the Government of Canada in 2001 and was recommended by a group of Quebec researchers in 2008. The definition of health used as a basis for the concept of healthy aging is taken from the World Health Organization. Hence, health is taken to mean an individual's state of equilibrium at a given point based on their subjective level of well-being.

Today, we are recommending to the committee that the government follow in the footsteps of other governments and apply the concept of gender-based analysis, or GBA, when evaluating its programs and policies. GBA is an analytical process that promotes gender equality. When applied systematically to policy and program development, GBA identifies situations that require different measures for men and women. That is our first recommendation. Consider this: when a department or agency conducts a gender-based analysis, it is much easier to see whether funding policies and needs analyses give equal consideration to the needs of women, including senior women, and men.

Now I'd quickly like to share a few other observations with you.

As we see it, the aging population is one of the most pressing strategic imperatives for all governments.

Quebec has an elder abuse hotline that seniors can call between 8 a.m. and 8 p.m., seven days a week, if they have questions or concerns. According to the figures, more than 70% of the alleged victims who call for advice are women. That means more women than men call the helpline because of concerns.

Furthermore, senior women are poorer than men. The gap will eventually close, but we estimate it will take another 20 years at least.

It is also interesting to note that women and seniors who are women take on the caregiver role far more than men. That is clear from the data. Unfortunately, though, there is little financial recognition for retired seniors who are women.

Community organizations that work with and support seniors have insufficient funding.

Yes, Madam Chair?

9 a.m.

The Vice-Chair Ms. Irene Mathyssen

We are just past seven minutes, and I wondered if you would like one minute to—

9 a.m.

President, Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées

Luce Bernier

The AQDR strongly recommends that the current formula for federal health transfers be adjusted to include a variable that takes into account the aging population.

We recommend as well that the government continue paying guaranteed income supplement benefits to the surviving spouse in the case of death.

Next, we recommend that the government increase all the amounts for the various caregiver tax credits available to seniors.

Furthermore, we are calling on the federal government to address mistreatment and intimidation by implementing an awareness program that would even target the banking industry.

In conclusion, it is important that the committee and the government adopt an approach that addresses agism, and values and recognizes the positive role of seniors in our society.

Thank you for your consideration and the extra minute.

9 a.m.

The Vice-Chair Ms. Irene Mathyssen

Thank you so much, and thank you for your patience.

Now we'll have Monsieur Danis Prud'homme for seven minutes, please.

9 a.m.

Danis Prud'homme General Manager, Provincial Secretariat, Réseau FADOQ

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to share our recommendations for making life better for aging women.

I'd like to begin by telling you a little bit about Réseau FADOQ, a network with over 500,000 members across 16 of Quebec's administrative regions and more than 700 local offices. Since the network was founded 49 years ago, its primary mission has been to help break the isolation of seniors by creating recreational opportunities for men and women. Today, the network also has another focus that takes up much of its time: advocating on behalf of our members in appropriate forums, like this committee, to improve quality of life for seniors today and tomorrow.

Nowadays, women are usually the ones who outlive their spouses, not men. In Quebec, seniors aged 65 and over make up 20% of the province's female population. Surviving the death of a life partner is doubly difficult for women, because they lose not only a spouse, but also income, all in the same month. These benefits include the guaranteed income supplement, old age security and the spouse's allowance. The Réseau FADOQ would like to see those benefits extended by at least a month following the death of a spouse; ideally, they would continue for another three months.

Despite slight improvements in 2007 and 2017, women's annual income is still lower than men's. Some 60% of women 15 and over work, and the percentage of women in part-time employment is twice as high as that of men. More than 58% of these women make minimum wage. This makes life harder considering that one in three women who are caregivers also works, as compared with one in five men who are caregivers. According to the market basket measure, or MBM, the poverty line for a single person in Quebec, in 2018, is between $17,000 and $18,500, depending on where they live. In many cases, senior women in that category are just scraping by.

We are therefore calling on the government to consider raising or enhancing the guaranteed income supplement, through either a low-income measure based on 50% of the median income—LIM 50—or an MBM measure to which 7% would be added—MBM+7. Either option would make life a little easier for women.

Given that women are living longer and tend to outlive men, it's important to keep in mind that more women have to spend money on glasses, hearing aids, dental work and so on. If they pull money out of a small RRSP or RRIF or use money that was left to them by their husband to cover the expense, the withdrawals can be subject to tax. What's more, any guaranteed income supplement benefits they receive will be clawed back by a dollar for every two dollars of income used to cover the expense. Thus, we recommend that the government not tax any amount used to cover medical expenses and that it not take such amounts into account when calculating the guaranteed income supplement. We know the federal government currently offers certain RRSP-related tax exemptions, and we think they should include medical costs incurred by seniors.

As I mentioned, the bulk of caregivers are women; they are the ones who look after loved ones. Since they tend to have less financial means, they are hit hardest. We are asking the government to double the caregiver tax credit and to make it refundable rather than non-refundable. We are calling on the Government of Quebec to do the same. Since these women don't have large incomes to start, the non-refundable tax credit does nothing for them. A refundable tax credit would, however, help.

As far as employment insurance and job protection for caregivers is concerned, they have access to 15 weeks of sickness benefits and up to 26 weeks of compassionate care benefits. We want the government to raise the maximum benefit of $562 per week. At the very least, 12 months of job protection should be available to caregivers. After 26 weeks, or six months, of compassionate care benefits, caregivers have no further income and may be out of a job as well. We are calling on the government to provide caregivers with 12 months of statutory job protection.

Now I will turn to the aging population.

Here are some numbers to support our next recommendation. In 2011, the number of 85-year-olds was 160,000. In 2031, the population will be 350,000, and in 2041, it will hit roughly 600,000. That is the age at which the body starts to fail, unfortunately, and that will mean much higher health care costs. We are asking the federal government to raise health transfers to 6% annually and to calculate the transfer based on the province's aging population, because of the additional costs that go along with getting older.

Furthermore, local services that are accessible to seniors must be maintained in all communities. We live in a digital world, but many seniors don't have access to it. In some cases, connectivity in the region may still be lacking, and in other cases, seniors may simply be unable to afford the necessary equipment or Internet service. Indirectly, this leads to the isolation of seniors. Greater access to client service centres throughout all regions would result in less isolation for seniors.

In conclusion, a lack of mobility affects isolation, so we are calling on the government to bring back the public transit tax credit.

Thank you.

9:10 a.m.

The Vice-Chair Ms. Irene Mathyssen

Thank you.

Thank you very much, and thank you for being so good about the time.

We're going to proceed to questions now. We have a seven-minute round, and the first questioner is Madame Sidhu.

9:10 a.m.

Sonia Sidhu Brampton South, Lib.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you all for being here.

I met with CARP a couple of times in my riding. I represent Brampton South.

We know we need to do a lot with respect to seniors so they can live life with dignity. As you said, we know there's an issue of financial security. Once older adults become poorer, they are more likely than young people.... There are fewer job opportunities. You said it's mostly women who are facing more challenges.

What should we do so they can have more opportunities or so they can have a better life? Can you explain that, Mr. Prud'homme?

9:10 a.m.

General Manager, Provincial Secretariat, Réseau FADOQ

Danis Prud'homme

Yes. Thank you for your question.

First of all, we need to adopt measures to support what we call “experienced workers”. Not everyone can keep working until the age of 65. Some jobs are simply too difficult or demanding for older workers. What we would like to see established is a scale that measures the difficulty of work tasks; jobs would be catalogued and it would be possible to determine whether an average 62-year-old was unable to continue performing the duties of a given job, for instance. We want those individuals to be able to keep working, so that means creating training programs. As I pointed out, these are people with less money and they can't be expected to take a training course if they don't have any income.

These people should be able to sign an agreement with the government that would allow them to receive CPP benefits while taking a six-month training course to work in a different job. Having already received six months of CPP benefits, they would have to work six months longer before retiring, under the terms of the agreement. That's one of the measures we'd like the government to adopt.

Second of all, we need to address ongoing training. Agism is a real issue, as you pointed out. People often assume that senior workers will be less productive and miss more work, and that's not true. It's nothing more than a stereotype. We are calling for ongoing training for seniors. Under most programs, ongoing training isn't available past the age of 35. If we want seniors to work, we have to support their training.

February 28th, 2019 / 9:10 a.m.

Brampton South, Lib.

Sonia Sidhu

You also mentioned access to technology. I can give you the example of a senior with diabetes who has to manage the diabetes app. In my riding, 20% of people have a language barrier, and they don't have any access to technology. If they do have access to technology, they don't know how to use that technology.

What should we do to simplify things so that our seniors can learn? I know that we have a senior horizons program that is helping in terms of the isolation of seniors. That's a great program, and I've had very good feedback, but what kind of program can we set up so that our seniors can get access to technology so that they can manage simple diseases? Telemetry is another thing; they can manage their blood pressure.

Can you elaborate on any of that?

9:10 a.m.

General Manager, Provincial Secretariat, Réseau FADOQ

Danis Prud'homme

I would say that, in order to adapt to technology, people need a reasonable amount of time to transition, and nowadays, that transition window is rather tight. For those of us accustomed to using technology at work, it's easy, but that's not the case for those who have never had that experience. I often say that today's children are born with a USB key in their hands. It wasn't like that back in our day. Therefore, it's important to take the time to educate people and to do so in the right way.

9:10 a.m.

Brampton South, Lib.

Sonia Sidhu

Social isolation, loneliness, anxiety, depression—these are the other things. You also made a point about increasing the GIS so that a spouse can have a better life. This is another challenge being faced by our seniors.

When it comes to loneliness, Ms. Bernier, what kind of community programs would your organization have? Can you elaborate on those programs?

9:15 a.m.

President, Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées

Luce Bernier

Feelings of isolation and loneliness are common to many seniors and have a big impact. Our association and other similar organizations try to help them overcome that.

You brought up technology, so here's one for you: a 19th-century invention called the telephone.

The telephone remains a vital service for seniors and can help them overcome their isolation. Something we support is the creation of a telephone outreach service; workers would make daily calls to seniors, identify themselves and check whether the senior was doing okay. For some single seniors, it's the only call they receive all day. That's how we can ease their isolation. There are small things we can do to help seniors, and they don't necessarily involve technology.

Different associations offer that kind of service, but they need multi-year funding to keep the service going. That's a challenge we and other associations face. Even though governments recognize that it's a good idea, they only give us enough funding for six months or a year. After that, we have to come up with the money.

In a nutshell, telephone services are a necessary way to reach out to seniors. It's also important that seniors have contact with people in their community and that their needs be addressed. For example, our association met with seniors to discuss new services that pharmacists were offering. We brought in a pharmacist and talked about feelings of loneliness and insecurity. We believe direct contact is key.

I'd like to say something about technology. Mr. Prud'homme talked about this. Of course, some seniors aren't as comfortable with technology. Areas in Quebec and Canada still have inadequate Internet service or none at all. On the Quebec side, just 30 or 40 kilometres away from Ottawa, people don't have access to high-speed Internet, no matter if they are 30 or 80. When it comes to technology, the first challenge is making sure high-quality Internet service is available throughout Quebec and Canada.

I hope that answers your question, Ms. Sidhu.

9:15 a.m.

The Vice-Chair Ms. Irene Mathyssen

Thank you.

Madam Harder, go ahead, please. You have seven minutes.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Harder Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

My first question is for FADOQ, for Mr. Prud'homme.

I'm wondering if you can expand a bit more on what you do with regard to helping seniors understand perhaps different phishing scandals that take place. Oftentimes, seniors are victims of phone calls that are asking them for money for things—a donation or a gift in kind—or phone calls from “the CRA” asking them to remit money because they didn't pay enough on their taxes. We hear stories of the elderly being targeted by these types of phone calls and initiatives.

First, is there anything your organization does in order to help these seniors? Second, can you give us just an overall reflection on what you're observing with regard to the prevalence of these types of things happening?

9:15 a.m.

General Manager, Provincial Secretariat, Réseau FADOQ

Danis Prud'homme

Thank you for your question.

Thanks to the New Horizons for Seniors Program, we've put in place an initiative to combat elder abuse, cases of abuse of power, mistreatment and bullying. Over the past few years, we've helped to educate more than 75,000 people through our free sessions. We talk about various types of fraud, be it online, over the phone or door-to-door. We also provide profiles of typical fraudsters and typical seniors who unfortunately fall prey to their schemes. We have resources for people who think they have been scammed or know someone who has. We tell them the organizations they have to call to report the fraud and get help.

As for what we're observing in relation to new technology, I would underscore the fact that seniors were born at a time when today's technology didn't exist. Obviously, they don't understand the mechanics of it all. If they're instructed to go to a bank's website online, even if the bank and the website are legitimate and there's a little lock in the address bar confirming that the site is secure, they're still apprehensive. With all the cases of phishing, it's even more important to make sure that people are informed and that they know exactly what to do and how to check they are on a legitimate site. One of the things we explain is that a bank will never ask for their PIN over the phone. As part of our efforts to prevent fraud, we publish various tips like that in our magazine, which has a readership of one and a half million.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Harder Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

If someone is a victim of a phishing scheme, like the one I've outlined, is there assistance offered to them?

9:20 a.m.

General Manager, Provincial Secretariat, Réseau FADOQ

Danis Prud'homme

In each station, a police officer leads the information session with the help of a volunteer. At each session, people line up to talk to the police officer. It's a way of helping people get out of these situations. When people call us, our trained employees use a short reference guide. The employees refer the people to the right place, where they'll receive assistance.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Harder Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Can you comment a little further on the abuse that sometimes takes place toward seniors? It's my understanding that oftentimes elder abuse actually originates within the family or with a close caregiver. What are your observations with regard to the prevalence of elder abuse, and what is your organization able to do in order to assist those individuals, either through preventative measures or in response to elder abuse that takes place?

9:20 a.m.

General Manager, Provincial Secretariat, Réseau FADOQ

Danis Prud'homme

During the fraud information sessions, we also talk about the abuse of power and abuse. We present the profile of a typical person who carries out these acts and the profile of a typical senior victim, so that people can identify with them. There are very clear vignettes that show the life of a family. The mother lives with her daughter, who has a husband and child. There's no dialogue, but people can see what's happening. They see abusive acts, looks or other behaviours that don't even need words to be understood. The goal is to show that just about everyone, unfortunately, treats a senior inappropriately at some point. We provide the sessions for prevention purposes. In addition, as my colleague said, Quebec has a telephone line, the Ligne Aide Abus Aînés, which refers seniors to resources. The seniors are then assisted by professionals.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Harder Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Okay. Thank you.

At this time, Madam Chair, I would like to move a motion for consideration by the committee. This motion is being presented to the committee for the third time. Previous to this, it was voted down twice by the Liberal members of this committee.

The motion reads as follows:

That the Committee invite the Minister for Women and Gender Equality to brief the Committee on her new mandate, given that Status of Women Canada has changed to the Department for Women and Gender Equality, no later than Thursday, April 4, 2019, that this meeting be no less than one hour in length and be televised.

Madam Chair, the reason for this motion is described here. As of right now, the department, Status of Women, works in conjunction with this committee, but the department has changed. As of December 13, 2018, royal assent was given. With that, the mandate has changed.

Now, it was previously argued at this table by Liberal members that the mandate actually hasn't changed, that it remains the same, and that therefore there is no reason to bring the minister forward. But a number of weeks ago, we had the director for strategic policy, Ms. Danielle Bélanger, here at the table. I asked her if the mandate had expanded, and she confirmed that it had. She said this:

On December 13, 2018, the Department for Women and Gender Equality Act received royal assent, which transformed the former Status of Women Canada into the Department for Women and Gender Equality. This brought with it an expanded mandate for the new department for all matters relating to women and gender equality, including the advancement of social, economic and political equality, with respect to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity and expression.

The department plays a central policy role in ensuring a more inclusive and equal society for all Canadians, and in the mainstreaming of the gender and diversity lens, also known as gender-based analysis plus, GBA+.

I asked her to expand on this, to confirm once again that it had indeed expanded, and Ms. Bélanger said:

The mandate has expanded.... [T]he mandate has expanded to sex and gender and looking at gender identity and gender expression, as well as sexual orientation.... I would say it's an evolution in some ways. We had been doing work with LGBTQ communities, to a certain extent, based on some of our programming, but we've also been doing work with girls. Girls weren't part of the original mandate of Status of Women Canada, so I think it's an evolution in that respect.

It would appear, then, that the mandate has in fact expanded. I went on to ask her if she felt it would be a good idea for us to be briefed on that expansion, and she confirmed that it would.

Further to that, interestingly enough, I have the minister's own words from October 29, 2018. I have a report here from the Government of Canada where the Honourable Maryam Monsef, Minister of Status of Women, issued the following statement on the introduction of the budget implementation act of 2018, which included legislation to create the Department for Women and Gender Equality. She said that her government recognized that it must include “a commitment to bring in legislation to transform Status of Women Canada from an agency to an official department in the Government of Canada”. She went on to explain that its mandate must be expanded “for gender equality to include sexual orientation, gender identity and expression, and promoting a greater understanding of the gender and diversity lens often known as Gender-based Analysis Plus”.

It is clear, based on the minister's own words as well as the words of the director for strategic policy, Ms. Bélanger, that the mandate of this committee actually has been expanded. Given that it's expanded, it would then seem appropriate for the minister to come to this committee and brief us on that expansion, which would therefore then give us an understanding of what is covered off at this table.

Now, I think that seems like a reasonable request, Madam Chair, but as we know, in the past—two times before—the current members have voted this down because they don't want their minister to come to this committee or to have to answer our questions. It's interesting, because we see this playing out in the government as a whole, where they want to cover for individuals within their caucus and not allow light to be shed on decisions that are being made.

We see this with the Prime Minister, where the Prime Minister actually withheld information from the Canadian public with regard to SNC-Lavalin and the former attorney general of Canada, and where the Prime Minister pressured her unduly and this information was attempted to be hidden.

The members of this committee might be interested to know what the Prime Minister stated in his mandate letters to all ministers. I'll refresh your memory. This is what he said to Ms. Monsef: “I am honoured that you have agreed to serve Canadians as Minister of Status of Women.” Interestingly enough, you'll note that it says “Status of Women”, because she hasn't received a new mandate letter, even though she supposedly has a new mandate. This letter is actually based from October 4, 2017, which begs the question, where is the minister's new mandate letter? If the Prime Minister is in fact inviting accountability from the Canadian public, then it would be appropriate to actually provide a new letter to the minister so that she might be held accountable based on the things outlined within that letter.

Nevertheless, I will continue based on the former letter, taking the Prime Minister at his word that these are in fact the things he hopes to do on behalf of the Canadian public. He says, “We promised Canadians real change—in both what we do and how we do it.” He sure did: lots more cover-ups. He goes on to say, “Canadians expect us to fulfill our commitments, and it is my expectation that you will do your part in delivering on those promises to Canadians.”

He also says, “I expect Canadians to hold us accountable”, which is interesting to me. Again, I've twice asked for the minister to come to this committee to understand her portfolio, now that it's changed. That would fit within that category of accountability, but interestingly enough, the Liberal members of this committee have twice shot down this motion. Further, to the current case that is in the national media with regard to the former attorney general and the Prime Minister wrongfully pressuring her or strong-arming her into doing his dirty work, it would appear that your party, the Prime Minister in particular, has absolutely no intention of being held accountable.

Nevertheless, these are the words of his letter:

I expect Canadians to hold us accountable for delivering these commitments, and I expect all ministers to do their part—individually and collectively—to improve economic opportunity and security for Canadians.

It is my expectation that we will deliver real results and professional government to Canadians.

I have a different definition of “professional” than he does. Nevertheless, he goes on to say:

If we are to tackle the real challenges we face as a country...Canadians need to have faith in their government's honesty and willingness to listen.

That's another phrase worth highlighting—their “honesty”. The Prime Minister doesn't appear to abide by his own words. He goes on to say:

I expect you to report regularly on your progress toward fulfilling our commitments and to help develop effective measures that assess the impact of the organizations for which you are answerable.

I made a personal commitment to bring new leadership and a new tone to Ottawa.

This is the Prime Minister's personal commitment.

I would surmise, based on the evidence that has been presented within the House of Commons and in particular the justice committee yesterday, that the Prime Minister has failed in this regard. He has not been honest with Canadians. He has not invited accurate accountability. He has not brought a new tone to Ottawa—unless, of course, untruth is the tone he's going for.

He goes on to say, “We have also committed to set a higher bar for openness and transparency in government.” Sorry, but that's laughable. I was trying to hold it together on that one, but “openness and transparency”.... Meanwhile, behind a closed door, I'm trying to strong-arm the former attorney general into making a decision that directly benefits a company that is being charged with—

9:30 a.m.

The Vice-Chair Ms. Irene Mathyssen

Thank you, Madam Harder—

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

On a point of order, I don't see how this has anything to do with the motion that was presented. It's really going off topic right now.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Harder Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I'll continue with the letter here. If we want Canadians to trust—

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Terry Duguid Liberal Winnipeg South, MB

There's a point of order here.