Status of Women Committee on April 4th, 2019

[Katherine Scott]

It is. People who are isolated are victimized.

[Dr. Kiran Rabheru]

There are many models of that in the world.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Let's talk a little bit more in depth about the discrimination that you raised at the beginning of your presentation, Ms. Gillis. I'm wondering if you have any recommendations for changing or enhancing our education system. I think that in order to prevent or change the culture around the way we perceive older women, we have to start at a very young age.

[Margaret Gillis]

I absolutely agree with that, and that was why one of my first recommendations was that we look at a program to address ageism. It's a really hidden “-ism”, one that people don't think about. It's very embedded. If you just watch a few commercials and think about ageism, you will be shocked at what you see when you really focus on what they're saying. It would never be said about any other group in society. I agree that, yes, we should be thinking about it in schools, but we need to just lift it off at some level somewhere. I think that calling it what it is, addressing it and educating people about what we need to do to stop it is really, really important. That's why that was my first recommendation. We really need to have some kind of programming where we actually call it what it is and get people to understand that they're doing it in their everyday lives, just like we have to counter racism or sexism or any of the other evil “-isms”.

[Dr. Kiran Rabheru]

The difference is that it will affect 100% of us.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Ms. Scott, my experience in my community in Outremont is that women who are still in the workforce between 55 and 65 and even older really enjoy their experience in the workforce. It provides them with a social network. It gives them a sense of continued contribution to society. I 100% agree that pay equity is a huge issue, but I wonder if you have any evidence of it actually being a positive thing that women are staying in the workforce a little bit longer.

[Katherine Scott]

I think there's no question that when women are able to continue in paid employment and have decent working conditions and the like, it's extraordinarily beneficial to them down the road. They benefit socially. They benefit in a myriad of ways. My argument around whether we can increase levels of employment among...as a be-all and end-all.... I'm just saying, absent investment in affordable housing, absent investment in social..., I don't think that will deliver that kind of outcome. The truth is that women's economic participation is a pretty hot topic these days, and clearly we've seen this extraordinary uptick in women nearing retirement age in terms of their attachment to the labour force. There's arguably a good deal of room. They're still 10 points off men's labour force participation in that group, but it's interesting.

Here are some of the other things that women are dealing with at that time: Certainly, older women, as Margie was saying, have challenges with chronic illness and the like. This is the time when they may well have eldercare responsibilities. They may actually be supporting their adult children. It's a time when many enjoy being attached, but they have extraordinary responsibilities and pressures as well.

We see, in the information from the social survey and the like, talk about the number of women who leave paid employment because they have no choices, or they quit jobs to move elsewhere to provide care and support. I think that women should be encouraged to engage in the paid labour market. That is extraordinarily important to their autonomy and their voice on all sorts of.... However, it's not a realistic strategy if we don't actually fully understand the complexity of their lives and the pressures that are being brought to bear, and take a holistic approach.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We'll now start our second round.

Dave, you have the floor.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank the panel for more excellent testimony.

Dr. Rabheru, you said there are three things that every human being needs—somewhere to live, something to do and someone to love. Is that a personal observation or is that a study find?

[Dr. Kiran Rabheru]

No. I wish I could claim ownership of that. I heard it from someone else.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

So it's not a study find. It's great, though.

[Dr. Kiran Rabheru]

Yes. That's what it boils down to.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Yes.

Ms. Gillis, you paint a grim picture of what's happening to a lot of our seniors. I'm going to date myself, but I think I served on this committee in the 39th Parliament. It's been that long.

[A voice]

He's 40.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

It's great to be back.

You talked about some of the issues we confront with our seniors today. They are grim. We know these things. But what happened? I began this by dating myself, because I remember a time when seniors were cherished and looked after. Is this an indictment of our own culture? Is this something we just slipped into? What happened?

[Margaret Gillis]

We have a youth-focused culture. I think that's pretty obvious. I wonder whether, if we looked really closely, it wasn't there before also. I don't know offhand. I would guess that some of these prejudices have always been around. I think what's really important now is to start to pull off the covers and reveal them. That's why I wanted to bring here today some of the messaging in terms of moving forward, really calling ageism what it is, and thinking about the impact on older women in terms of what you folks are doing here at the table. That is such a larger portion of our senior population.

Besides doing some kind of strategic plan to counter ageism, I think there are some really rich opportunities in terms of moving forward on the United Nations convention on the rights of older persons. Some of the research we have done with our colleagues at the University of Ottawa and elsewhere around the world has really shown that it is one tool that allows you to start putting a focus on what's happening to those particular groups.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Dr. Rabheru.

[Dr. Kiran Rabheru]

Thank you for your question. I think it's a really good point to pause and reflect on.

I'd like you to check your neighbours at the table—I hope you have someone sitting next to you on both sides—because the bad news is that one out of the three of you will be demented by the time you're 80. The good news is that it won't be you. It will be whoever's sitting next to you.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Kiran Rabheru]

If you believe what I just said, welcome to the world of denial. We are supreme at denial: Nothing's going to happen to us.

The difference is that in 1900, the average life expectancy was around 48. It is now 84. People are living longer. We never expected to live this long. I think that's been a huge shift. Medical advances have changed a lot, but people haven't changed that much. Our basic needs haven't changed, yet we're not able to provide them the way we used to.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

We also talked about income. Unless the statistics have changed, a number of years ago—I'm talking maybe a couple of years ago—63% of people in Canada received just CPP. That doesn't apply to stay-at-home moms, and obviously the OAS and GIS kick in. My mother was one of those as well. Do we have an unfair retirement system if 63% of the people in this country get just CPP? Is there something wrong with our retirement system if it's so lopsided?

[Katherine Scott]

I think you mean in addition to OAS and GIS.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Yes.

[Katherine Scott]

The proportion of seniors who receive OAS and GIS is actually in the 90%, and in fact it's closing.