Status of Women Committee on May 9th, 2019

[Paula MacDonald]

Yes. They assigned me an assisting officer, who then helped me to write the documents in the way they wanted them written, but they wouldn't allow me to put in the documents the issue of the commanding officer being abusive towards me. They were all health care professionals. Health care professionals should be aware that not wanting to be sexually harassed doesn't mean that you're not mentally fit. They were just doing that to intimidate and bully me.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

You mentioned previously, as well, that you were often referred back to the harassers in order to either resolve the dispute or have your case dealt with. Would you suggest that there be a separate procedure in place with an independent party that would be responsible for hearing cases of harassment against women specifically?

[Paula MacDonald]

Yes, or LGBTQ members or anyone who's different....

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

That's in cases of discrimination.

[Paula MacDonald]

Yes, because of the discrimination, they need to be protected from the group mentality in the Canadian Armed Forces.

To answer your question, after they did the first failed investigation, they did another harassment investigation. They made a determination of 18 situations that were considered harassment. They then tried very hard to find an internal investigator to come to do it, and couldn't find anyone within the military. They then decided that the incidents I had experienced and that they had determined were harassment were no longer harassment, and so they closed the harassment investigation. Then they opened up an administrative investigation and determined that incidents of sexual harassment I said had occurred did occur. Then, in that situation, they weren't using their correct internal Canadian Armed Forces definition of harassment, and they also weren't using the correct legal definition of the Canadian definition of sexual harassment, in terms of a poisonous environment or a poisoned work environment.

That's three investigations they did into what happened at 35 Field Ambulance, and they were not able to do it correctly. The reason they weren't able to do it correctly, I think, is that they didn't want to. The people there have master's degrees from the University of Toronto. They are highly educated people, so I don't understand why they wouldn't be able to reason their way through that.

The next investigation was of the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School. Within that, there were the same types of behaviours happening, with course instructors overtly sexualizing women and talking about them as if they were sexual objects in their day-to-day activities. They were giving nicknames to parts of the equipment to be a soldier's sexualized name. There are all kinds of sexual innuendos going on all the time. It's not done professionally; it's like this high level of verbal sexualization that's going on.

Whenever they conducted their investigation into the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School, they didn't include anybody in their investigations who may have been able to speak to what was actually going on.

There's also a report out in which the Canadian Armed Forces investigated what was going on regarding the seven deaths, the seven suicides, of the young men. They concluded there was nothing systemic happening. I think they concluded that because they left out anyone who wouldn't have anything to lose by saying this happened. What I mean by that is I wasn't interviewed. I don't believe any of the other women who went through it at the same time as I did, who voluntarily released.... A lot of the women who were experiencing the sexual harassment in the training, some of them told me they experienced suicidal ideation and then they got out of the military because of their health. I had to get out based off of my health as well. I developed post-traumatic stress disorder from the training.

They just didn't include people in order to reach the results they wanted to come out of that. So I think it's really important that we move the investigative and the resolution mechanisms into a separate group that would be able to address the things that are happening and come up with solutions in a timely manner. For me, four and a half years is too long to be dealing with what's going on. The way the human rights process works in the Canadian Armed Forces shows there's a lack of access to justice. The amount of time I've spent dealing with the Canadian human rights processes is an immense investment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

We're now going to move on to our five-minute round. We'll start with Phil McColeman.

Phil, you have the floor for five.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you for being here today. If you are willing to continue, I really want you to get at what your clear recommendations would be for the restructuring. You just started at it in the last part your last testimony. You referred quite often during your testimony to management systems. Many of us know management systems from a corporate level in the world outside of politics.

[Paula MacDonald]

Right.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

It worked in different corporate environments where, obviously, there are different cultures of corporate structures and management systems in these companies that are driven by both genders or all genders of people. They're not necessarily driven by a male-dominated structure.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge about that, based on what you were saying in your original testimony. What would be the kinds of things you would do?

[Paula MacDonald]

I would start with what the Marie Deschamps report said because she had really excellent recommendations as to how to restructure. Those recommendations are there.

The idea of where the sexual misconduct centre reports to.... Did the report say that it would be with the reports to the Minister of Defence?

[A voice]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[Paula MacDonald]

So they would have to have a reporting structure in that area, where they're reporting directly to the Minister of Defence, as opposed to the chain of command in order to ensure that the harassment policies and procedures are being followed through. I would look at how they are doing their training and their socialization of new soldiers who are coming in so they're not going to have the next generation of soldiers affected by the hostile, sexualized culture. I think they're victims of what happened as well. The people there are victims. Anyone who went through that type of socialization process was negatively impacted and harmed, so we need to look at that as well.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You obviously have sought counsel through this whole process, I would assume.

[Paula MacDonald]

Yes.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Do you have a legal team working with you?

[Paula MacDonald]

No, I can't afford one. I'm a regular Canadian from Souris, Prince Edward Island, and I don't have the funds to be able—

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

[Paula MacDonald]

—to afford a legal team.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

The purpose of my asking that is to ask you to explain whether you know of other situations such as yours that set a precedent in going through this process, in terms of what the end results might have been through the human rights tribunals.

Do you know of any other individuals who have gone down this road, or are you pioneering this?

[Paula MacDonald]

I don't know of any other individuals who went through it to the extent I have. I know there are other individuals who brought their situations before the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, but I don't know of any who have dealt with the specifics I've dealt with.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I know a significant amount about the veterans community and how they tend to gravitate through social media, particularly those who have been diagnosed with PTSD or other issues related to mental health. They tend to communicate back and forth regularly with their colleagues who have, in most cases, been medically discharged from the services.

Do you have any network of people such as that?

[Paula MacDonald]

Yes. I'm highly connected with the group “It's Just 700”. It's women and men, because the sexual exploitation happened to both genders. There are more women who experienced this or are willing to speak to this than men at this particular time. I'm part of the group “It's Just 700”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Actually, we're over our time.

Sorry, Phil.

I'm going to pass it over to Eva.

Eva, you have five minutes.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. MacDonald.

In my riding of Vimy in Laval, we have the 4th Battalion of the Royal 22e Régiment.

Last Saturday, Minister Sajjan came to speak to the military personnel and to thank them for their work in helping with the flooding in Quebec and elsewhere. I had a look at the people in the room and tried to count the number of female members of the Canadian Armed Forces. I think women comprised perhaps 4% or 5% of those present.

Based on the results of a survey done in 2016 by Statistics Canada on sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces, 23% of those surveyed said they had been the victim of sexual assault during the past 12 months. The survey also indicated that 7% of those persons had reported the incidents. Of the 23%, that 7% accounts for 3% of those who reported incidents. What do you think are the factors that contribute to the low reporting rate of incidents and inappropriate sexual behaviour within the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Paula MacDonald]

I think that the members who report do experience retaliation and additional harassment for reporting. As for the outcomes of having a report done, people are aware that it will not be pleasant for members who report they are a victim of sexual assault.

Basically, there's no winning after you've been victimized by a sexual assault. I don't believe that you as a victim will get a good outcome from reporting, no matter what. Even if your harasser or your abuser is found guilty, it will still be a hard road to go down. It will not be a pleasant experience.