Evidence of meeting #23 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steph Guthrie  Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual
Ann Decter  Director, Advocacy and Public Policy, YWCA Canada
Raine Liliefeldt  Director of Member Services and Development, YWCA Canada
Lianna McDonald  Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
Signy Arnason  Director, Cybertip.ca, Canadian Centre for Child Protection

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome.

We are going to have an exciting time today. The first exciting thing for me is that we have gender parity on our committee today for the first time. Welcome to Chris Bittle, Jean Rioux, and Garnett Genuis, who are joining us today. That's wonderful.

From the YMCA, we have Ann Decter, who is the director of advocacy and public policy, and Raine Liliefeldt, who is the director of member services and development. We also have, by video conference, Stephanie Guthrie, complainant in the R. v. Elliott criminal harassment trial at the Ontario Court of Justice.

Welcome to all of you, ladies. We'll have 10 minutes for Stephanie to speak, then we'll go to the YMCA for five minutes each, and then we'll go to our regular round of questioning.

Welcome, Stephanie. You can begin your 10 minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Steph Guthrie Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual

Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me to testify today.

My last experience giving testimony was during a criminal harassment proceeding against a man who tirelessly followed my movements online and sent a plethora of unwanted communication in my direction. Based on my experiences, I strongly believe that the criminal legal system is not a constructive way to address cyberviolence against women and girls. Criminalizing this behaviour is a reactive approach that will not end the suffering, and in fact in some cases is likely to prolong the suffering of women and girls online.

Finally, because of existing biases in our society and among our police, a criminalization approach stands to disproportionately penalize and incarcerate indigenous and racialized people while giving a pass or a cushier ride to middle-class white men who inflict cyberviolence. Like other people who have testified before this committee on this issue, I believe that the best way to prevent cyberviolence is early and lifelong education initiatives informed by research. I also believe that we need non-adversarial interventions for survivors that prioritize ending and acknowledging the harm, rather than punishing the persons who inflicted the harm and asking them to be accountable to the state rather than to their community and the survivors whom they have harmed.

While preparing me for my testimony in my own case, the crown prosecutor said something I'll never forget. She told me, “Remember, the only opinion that matters is the judge's.” To me, that statement was emblematic of many of the problems I encountered with the criminal legal system. If the judge's opinion is the only one that matters, what happens to the opinion of the person who was harmed? What if the judge doesn't have an adequate grasp of the key issues that are informing the proceeding? What if the judge fails to understand the nuances of what it is like to move through the world in a body or skin colour different from his own?

First of all, let's be frank. The judge's opinion, even if it is the only one that matters, doesn't form in a vacuum. It is influenced by the judge's station in society. It is influenced by the opinions and stations in society held by the police officers who conduct the investigation and the counsel who argue the case. No human being is without bias, and our biases are shaped by the stereotypes, norms, and power differentials of the society we live in. If a judge, a police officer, or a lawyer does not intimately understand the realities of being a young woman, they are, frankly, not qualified to assess the “objective danger” of the situations young women and girls are facing online.

Second, legal workers often also lack forms of digital literacy—

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

We have a bit of technical difficulty. Just hang on for a minute while we restore the audio.

We'll pause your testimony, and we'll start with our guest from the YMCA.

I'll start with you, Ann, for five minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Ann Decter Director, Advocacy and Public Policy, YWCA Canada

Good afternoon. I am Ann Decter. I am the director of advocacy and public policy at YWCA Canada. We are both from the national office of the YWCA, not the YMCA. We do end up correcting that a lot.

It is nice to see so many men here to learn about violence against young women and girls.

For almost 150 years, YWCA Canada has worked to improve the lives of young women and girls....

Did you want to go back to Steph? It might be easier for her.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

It would be easier for her. Is that all right? Stephanie, we'll continue with yours.

3:35 p.m.

Director, Advocacy and Public Policy, YWCA Canada

Ann Decter

You haven't got sound on.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

We haven't got the sound yet.

Okay, great; now we do. I'm sorry about that. We'll go back to you, then.

3:35 p.m.

Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual

Steph Guthrie

There's no need to apologize.

I'm not sure what the last part you heard was. The next thing I would say is that legal workers often also lack forms of digital literacy that are crucial to cyberviolence cases. Regardless of which side they took on the verdict in my case, many observers commented on how the judge's decision revealed what was, on his part, a very limited grasp of how the Internet works, and Twitter in particular, which is where the harassment occurred.

Let me be clear that the judge in my case did work very hard to understand how Twitter works by asking many follow-up questions. He was very thorough. However, you don't learn what it's like to use Twitter by asking questions. You learn what it's like to use Twitter by using it.

While on the stand, I explained what it means to put a period in front of someone's username in a tweet. I explained the mechanics of blocking someone on Twitter and what it actually achieves, which is not very much. I explained what the sticky-outtie tongue emoticon means.

But how do you explain to someone who has never used Twitter what it's like to be someone who uses Twitter as your primary means of sharing your voice with the world? How do you explain to that person who never uses Twitter just how much it impacted your life to no longer be able to use it freely, and to feel fear every time you sign in that your harasser is going to be there to greet you? The answer is that you can't, but that person who doesn't use the Internet will have the power to determine the official public narrative of what happened to you on the Internet. That person will compare Twitter, a privately owned corporation, to a public square. That person will characterize your choice to have a public Twitter account as inviting the world into your living room, without acknowledging that you should be able to kick that person out of your living room if they are behaving in a way that scares you.

In other words, that person will essentially conclude that you asked for it, that this kind of treatment is to be expected and tolerated, and that the onus is on potential victims to do everything in their power to prevent others from preying on them.

The adversarial nature of the criminal legal system means that survivors are bombarded with scrutiny of their actions, a scrutiny which in many cases is not equally levied at the accused. In this case, the criminal legal system simply reproduces the victim-blaming and impossible standards of behaviour that our society already imposes on survivors of gender-based violence, and also reproduces the comparative leniency experienced by those who inflict it in broader society.

My fear was characterized by the judge as unreasonable because I at times lashed out angrily about the man who was harassing me. Judges are called upon to apply an objective standard to determine the reasonability of a victim's feelings. “Reasonable”—that's a funny, subjective word, isn't it? It's easy to see the many ways in which societal stereotypes about appropriate victim behaviour and who makes a good or a bad victim might inform these judgments.

The criminal legal system, frankly, fetishizes an objectivity that in many cases does not exist. The reality is that many crimes relating to interpersonal violence, including crimes that fall under the gender-based violence umbrella, such as cyberviolence, involve a significant degree of subjectivity. We're talking about feelings, about interpretations of other people's feelings, about intuition based on non-verbal communication. There is often not a smoking gun, and there's often no objective crow's nest that any participant can sit in to assess the situation.

Even my own judge openly stated in his ruling that his lens on the law is shaped by his lens on society, which is in turn shaped by his social location, in this case as a man. He quoted from another judge's ruling and said, “We may try to see things as objectively as we please. Nonetheless, we can never see them with any eyes except our own”, yet he still found me unreasonable to fear for my safety when I was, by his own admission, being harassed by an unhinged and vulgar man.

In my own case, I often wonder what might have happened if my harasser had been a young black man instead of a middle-aged, middle-class white man with a white-collar job. I wonder how the police might have responded had I not been a middle-class, well-educated white woman. A legal principle at the end of the day is only a principle. How it looks in action and not on paper tends to shift and change depending on the relative power of the parties involved.

I understand why the rights of the accused are theoretically paramount in a criminal case. The stakes are high. We're talking about incarceration. We're talking about a permanent record. These things are a big deal.

I can tell you right now that I didn't go to the police because I wanted my harasser thrown in jail. I didn't go to the police because I wanted his reputation destroyed. I just wanted him to leave me alone.

I had already done everything in my power to achieve that, but with no success. I wanted help. I wanted a third party to intervene and to support me in conveying to him the harm that he was causing to me. I'm a middle-class women, and the narrative I've been peddled since childhood for when I need to be protected and when I need safety was to call the police. Doing that just raised the stakes to a level that I didn't want. It raised the stakes to a level that discourages many men who use violence and intimidation from ever being willing to admit to the harm they caused, because if they admit to the harm that they caused, then they might be incarcerated. It also meant that I gave up my agency to speak openly about what happened to me. This is the first time I've done that. I handed my official narrative to a judge, the only person whose opinion apparently matters, and a man who was not there and did not understand many of the particulars of the case.

What if we had more options for intervention that don't seek consequences like incarceration, but that simply seek an end to, and an acknowledgement of, the harm? I can tell you that I would have called a service like that in a heartbeat. I've talked to many survivors who feel the same.

Restorative and transformative justice processes offer these types of approaches, but these programs are few and far between, they're underfunded, access is extremely limited, and outcomes from these types of proceedings are often not afforded the same societal legitimacy as outcomes from criminal proceedings.

Restorative and transformative practices offer models of justice that research shows are more in step with the type of support that most survivors are seeking when they contact police. These processes are rooted in the practices of indigenous communities and communities of colour. They offer safer alternatives for survivors who don't feel safe contacting police because of the violence, historically and currently, inflicted by police upon their communities, such as black and indigenous people, sex workers, undocumented people, and transgendered people.

Survivors of cyberviolence need support to heal, and those who inflict it need to be reminded of the survivor's humanity and the right to live in peace. I don't believe the criminal legal system is truly capable of either of these things. As a survivor of both cyberviolence and the violence of our criminal court system, I'd like to see state resources diverted away from law enforcement and criminal courts and toward holistic, trauma-informed, survivor-centred processes of healing and accountability.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Thank you very much for sharing your story. That was excellent.

Now we will go to the YWCA—thank you for correcting me—and we'll start with Ann, for five minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Director, Advocacy and Public Policy, YWCA Canada

Ann Decter

Hi. Thank you for the invitation to be here today.

For almost 150 years, YWCA Canada has worked to improve the lives of young women and girls through programs, projects, and policy advocacy. As Canada's single largest provider of shelter for women and children fleeing violence, we place a high priority on ending violence against young women and girls. Empowering girls, developing young women's leadership, changing societal attitudes, advocating for violence prevention policies and education, and innovative programs and tools are all strategies in our approach.

To prevent violence against young women and girls, we need a societal shift in attitude similar to shifts in public acceptance of drinking and driving, and smoking in public places. Long-term public awareness campaigns were essential to making those changes and will be essential to preventing violence.

These need to be combined with preventive program initiatives and supportive responses for young women and girls who have experienced violence. Addressing violence against young women and girls requires a commitment to reconciliation and to inclusion, as well as specifically addressing both systemic and individual forms of violence against indigenous young women and girls.

Developing empowered young women and girls requires programs and spaces that foster leadership, empowerment, and self-affirmation. These gendered programs include safer spaces for young women to meaningfully engage in conversations around issues such as violence prevention that are adapted to girls and to young women.

Through our Power of Being a Girl initiative, girls 12 to 17 develop leadership by hosting events for World YWCA's annual Week Without Violence. YWCA GirlSpace provides an opportunity to raise awareness about violence and its root causes through workshops and projects, and our forthcoming Rights Guide for girls, young women, and gender non-conforming youth will empower girls by providing access to information on their rights.

Preventing violence against young women and girls also requires changing the behaviour of men and boys. A major issue on that front is consent to sexual activity. In a consent culture, everyone from judges and defence attorneys to campus sports teams and police officers understands, respects, and applies the law of consent that both people need to say yes to sexual activity; that silence does not mean yes, only yes means yes; and that it is illegal to have sexual contact with someone who has not consented, is unconscious, or is too impaired to give voluntary consent.

Social norms need to be shifted through consent education in public schools and post-secondary campuses as well as through mandatory training, leadership, and enforcement across police and court systems, up to and including removal of judges who fail to apply the law.

Public education strategies are needed to shift the stigma of sexual assault off those who are assaulted and onto the attacker, confirming that it is no more shameful to have been sexually assaulted than it is shameful to have your car stolen or your house robbed. It is shameful and criminal to commit sexual assault.

Girls and young women need safe, supportive homes. Most girls who leave home do so due to sexual abuse and violence. Others are escaping homophobia. First nations, Métis, and Inuit girls and young women may be leaving foster homes and group homes, or aging out of care without supports.

For teenage girls, homelessness carries the risk of violence, sexual exploitation, addiction, and criminalization. Teenage girls who have experienced homelessness stress the need for girls-only housing to provide a home that is free from sexual harassment and violence. Emergency shelters for young women are also key. Across the country, local YWCAs have initiated live-in programs for young mothers and their children, providing housing, support, education referrals, and advocacy as well as continuing outreach supports on transitioning out of programs.

YWCA Canada's award-winning Safety Siren smart phone app is an innovative tool to add to young women's safety. It's a free, downloadable application for iPhones, BlackBerry, and Androids that sends an emergency email to a pre-set contact with appropriate geolocation coordinates and places an emergency outgoing call to a pre-programmed number. It geolocates the user to nearby sexual assault centres, emergency hotlines, health centres, and clinics and offers a wide range of facts and information on women's health and wellness as well as women's health resources.

Finally, YWCA Canada's #NOTokay campaign aims to engage the general public in identifying violence against women in popular culture, social media music videos, television shows, and gaming, and to empower them to step up and say that's not okay.

Hashtag NOTokay aims to foster a society that instead of using violence against women, supports women and young women to fully exercise their rights and their freedoms.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Very good.

Now we'll let Raine have five minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Raine Liliefeldt Director of Member Services and Development, YWCA Canada

Good afternoon. My name is Raine Liliefeldt. I'm honoured to be here with you on the traditional territory of the Algonquin and Anishinabe people.

I'm here to paint you a picture. Stroke.

I had to go to school every day with another girl calling me a snake. I felt that if I didn't block her and just let her and her friends bully me, it won't be as hard as in real life. Stroke.

When I was going through a case when I was being told to kill myself and slit my throat and things, the schools, my family, and police didn't do anything but shrug their shoulders at me, but my friends tried to help me to stop it from happening.

Young women and girls in Canada experience deliberate violence because of their gender. Information and communication technologies and the spread of social media have presented new opportunities and enabled various efforts to address violence against women and girls. When girls and women are driven off the Internet, they lose the ability to be part of the platforms where more and more public debates take place. This is why the YWCA embarked on an initiative to better understand and support young women.

Project Shift, which creates a safer digital world for young women, is a national multi-year project led by YWCA Canada and funded by Status of Women Canada, and even though I'm talking about girls and young women, our work acknowledges and recognizes that cyberviolence also greatly impacts transgender and gender-nonconforming youth.

Let's zoom in. We use the term “cyberviolence” to mean any harmful act carried out through network technology. We've chosen to use this term because it respects the serious harm that these behaviours can do. This includes many of the behaviours often described as cyberbullying, such as spreading rumours about someone, impersonating them online, spreading intimate or embarrassing images, and targeting them with threats or sexist language, as well as stalking or monitoring them and so on. It may be carried out by peers, friends, strangers, or romantic partners. It's important to recognize that this is often connected to off-line violence. Online harassment can easily move off-line when harassers release their targets' personal information or an abusive relationship plays out online.

Cyberviolence impacts the daily lives of young women and girls. Girls are significantly more likely than boys to feel that the Internet is an unsafe space for them. A lot more girls than boys fear they could be hurt if they talk to someone they don't know online. One third of youth who experience violence online have symptoms of depression. Online harassment or abusive relationships can have effects that lasts for years or a lifetime. As well as the emotional impacts, cyberviolence against women also narrows their horizons by forcing them out of spaces where they don't feel safe or welcome.

Project Shift establishes the need for a gender lens to understand violence online. It makes recommendations for a range of public and private sectors, from educational institutions to parents, counsellors, police, and the information communication technology sector, also known as ICT.

As part of our work, YWCA has convened leaders from over a dozen ICT organizations. The round table, as we call it, hopes to move forward on creating systemic change on the issue of cyberviolence against young women and girls. Guided by YWCA's leadership and the connection to the issue, the members of the round table have agreed to share knowledge and resources within the ICT round table and across the sector with students, interns, employees, and colleagues; to cultivate a culture of empathy across the sector; and to provide leadership to advance the sector on accountability.

Here is how you give can support. To create systemic change and to end cyberviolence against girls and young women, we recommend that the government support women-centred training and education for the legal community and law enforcement and work with those who have experienced cyberviolence in a supportive and non-judgmental way; change the legal definition of abuse and harassment under the Criminal Code, and include cyberviolence to better protect young women and girls; continue funding YWCA Canada's work with the ICT sector to create a safer digital world; and fund the first national cross-sectoral conference on online safety, led by YWCA.

Cyberviolence happens to many women and girls who quit social networks after being harassed. We are failing as a democracy if we allow harassment and other forms of cyberviolence to keep girls and women from being able to exercise their full rights. It is the government's responsibility to ensure that girls and women are safe everywhere, online and off-line. Let's paint a different picture together.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Excellent. Very good.

Now we're going to go into our questioning. We're going to begin our questioning with Mr. Fraser, for seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Excellent. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'll start with you, Ms. Guthrie, and to each of our witnesses, thanks very much for your testimony. I really enjoyed the context that you provided.

You mentioned partway through your presentation that we should be directing resources away from the criminal legal system, law enforcement, and the criminal justice system and toward a trauma-informed, victim-centred strategy. Could you shed a little more light on what that might look like? I know you specifically mentioned that if there had been a service that you could have called, you would have, in a heartbeat. Do you have any other suggestions on what features that kind of a service would have?

3:50 p.m.

Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual

Steph Guthrie

Sure. There are a number of examples and lots of different ways to do restorative practice.

One model involves a prosecution referral. What would happen is someone from the office of the crown contacts the survivor and offers them the option of a criminal proceeding, a civil proceeding, or a restorative proceeding. The survivor chooses, and then if the person who's deemed responsible for the harm also consents to a restorative practice, they enter into what is essentially a mediated conference in collaboration with friends and family members chosen by both of them to be there to support them. The conference is geared toward the victim or survivor having a chance to articulate what type of harm they experienced, what they feel the person is responsible for, and how they feel that person could act in order to make themselves accountable, which could take a number of forms. It could be financial reparations for their therapy. It could be a public apology. It could look like any number of things, but it's about figuring out what the survivor or victim needs to feel a sense of justice and working with the person responsible to effect those changes.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Tell me if this assumption is off base. Given your experience trying to explain Twitter to someone who doesn't use Twitter, I assume there would have to be a heavy dose of specialized training to the people involved in the restorative process to make sure they understand the cyber aspect in 21st century social networking.

3:55 p.m.

Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual

Steph Guthrie

Absolutely. Really, if I had the power to, I would mandate that everyone working in the legal system and everyone working in education, especially anyone who is ever going to be in a circumstance where they're working with youth, is literate on these platforms. That's not just generally literate in social media; no one should be working on a cyberviolence case that occurred on Twitter if they don't understand how Twitter works, if they're not a Twitter user themselves. I really do feel that a baseline level of competency is required in a number of different sectors to deal with cyberviolence effectively.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

It's actually a nice segue to some questions I have for the folks from the YWCA, and thanks very much for being here.

You two discussed the importance of embedding institutions with the knowledge about violence against women more generally but also modern technology and how that might impact it. I think you referred to law enforcement, campuses, and courts, among other institutions. Could you give some thoughts on the other communities we should be trying to educate through some kind of public awareness campaign?

3:55 p.m.

Director of Member Services and Development, YWCA Canada

Raine Liliefeldt

In terms of our work around cyberviolence, we've looked at connecting with who we call “trusted adults”, meaning anyone who's a parent, teacher, counsellor—anyone young women could go to to learn more about something or to report. Often before it even gets to the point of entering the legal system, it's young women connecting directly with their parents or with a teacher, with someone they trust. For us that's a really key starting point. We're building a resource right now with an organization called MediaSmarts to do just that, to provide a base of information for trusted adults.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

So really a digital literacy initiative is what we're talking about.

3:55 p.m.

Director of Member Services and Development, YWCA Canada

Raine Liliefeldt

It's something like that. It's also that our focus is on support, non-blaming, and non-judgment, so it's not just about bridging the digital divide; it's about how to approach the issue when it arises.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

You mentioned as well—and I think each of the witnesses referred to it, at least in some terms—how we're driving young women off this new social platform that seems so important, and we've heard this from many witnesses now. Are there strategies that we can undertake to ensure that women are encouraged to remain part of these new discussions, part of the new economy and the new social platforms that we have?

Maybe we'll start with the YWCA, but I'd like to get your thoughts as well, Ms. Guthrie.

3:55 p.m.

Director of Member Services and Development, YWCA Canada

Raine Liliefeldt

There are a couple of pieces around that. One of them is about supporting young women to give them opportunities around the coding, what's happening behind the scenes in terms of the technology, and looking at STEM opportunities in science, technology, engineering, and math.

Some of our YWCAs are working with young women that way so that they have a greater understanding of the sphere of the environment. We're also working with Ladies Learning Code and to support young women to learn how to code so that they're creating the spaces themselves and they have an understanding of what's possible. That's one way.

3:55 p.m.

Director, Advocacy and Public Policy, YWCA Canada

Ann Decter

The ICT round table that Raine has convened has folks on it from Facebook and Microsoft. We need more co-operation from those kinds of providers, which is coming very slowly.

The Internet was really developed a bit like the Wild West. It's a freedom place and everybody gets to do everything, and they're slowly realizing that there is some social responsibility involved. I would hope that some day they bring the kind of savvy to this issue that they bring to developing technology.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Ms. Guthrie, what are your thoughts on what we can be doing to promote women's continued access to cyberspace?