Evidence of meeting #30 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
It's great that we get a second crack at this. I'll pick up, I think, where we left off during my last round of questioning.
You mentioned that criminal prosecution in and of itself is not a healthy way to deal with this kind of social problem. Have you guys ever been involved with any kind of a restorative justice approach or something outside of the criminal context in which maybe you've partnered to help a victim obtain justice or to help reform an individual within the justice system?
Director, New Leaf Program
We are getting requests from the John Howard Society around the restorative justice type of thing. We haven't met with them yet. I think again it goes back to the accountability and the fact that we're looking to work with these guys for the longer term.
I don't know. I guess in some ways it's like what Harvey was talking about earlier, about giving people choices that they didn't know they had in terms of what they want. We haven't entered into the discussions with the John Howard Society yet. We have a good working relationship with them for working with the young guys. It's a concern to me that the trend is that these guys going in for domestic violence charges are getting funnelled through restorative justice instead of being held accountable.
Co-Chair of the Board of Directors, New Leaf Program
The key piece is that they're funnelled through without doing the work.
Director, New Leaf Program
There are no consultations with us and no consultations with women's shelters. The courts have just started doing it, and my goodness, I don't get that.
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
We had one witness along these lines give testimony that stuck with me, and it was almost a bit counterintuitive when I heard it for the first time, but repeated things have come up. She was making the point that there should be, from a victim's perspective, different streams of justice, and it should be victim centred. If you choose criminal justice, that's great, good for you, but there's more to it for different people for what they consider to be justice.
She said that when you go through the criminal process, it essentially puts the victim up for a character assassination, and it causes the perpetrator to deny at all costs and never admit to the wrongdoing. It seems to me that you guys have taken completely the opposite approach when it comes to the perpetrator's point of view in saying that all of this is about admitting to yourself that you've done something wrong before you can even hope to achieve change. Is that fair?
Director, New Leaf Program
We work with individuals. We don't take absolute stands on very many things. It feels as though society is trying to rescue people from accountability for their choices. We recognize that when somebody chooses not to take responsibility, that hurts both sides that were involved in the domestic dispute. How do you get past that when you know somebody violated you and they're saying “No, I didn't. Prove it.”?
There needs to be some measure of accountability, whether or not they get it through the courts. We don't need them to go through the courts; we need them at some point to say, “I did the wrong thing, and I'm sorry.” Important long-term changes come from the simple statement, “I did the wrong thing, and I'm sorry.”
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
Going back to your school programs, I think it was Harvey who mentioned that you do have about 25 one-on-ones that you do with school-age—
Co-Chair of the Board of Directors, New Leaf Program
We've reduced it since, but—
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
How did they come to your organization? It seems you highlighted that those were ones who maybe had anger issues or some other reason for being there, other than just being in class that day.
Co-Chair of the Board of Directors, New Leaf Program
Quite often a school guidance counsellor or a school principal would call and say, “Look, I'm really struggling with this particular kid for these particular reasons. Could you guys work with the student?” We would say, on occasion, “Yes, we have the time, and we will.”
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
Do you find a difference in your success or the participation with the younger crowd you pull in through referrals from the school than maybe with the older guys who come to you through a court order or maybe even voluntarily at a different age?
Co-Chair of the Board of Directors, New Leaf Program
It's a little harder to track, because it's out of our scope, if you know what I mean. We're doing it because they need it and we see it as part of our work, but it's not our main program. If we never see them again, then maybe we've done a good job. If they haven't ended up back in our program as an older man, then maybe we've gotten where we needed to go with them, but that's not an absolute.
Certainly there have been many young men who have benefited from some individual work that Ron, Bob, Don, or I have done.
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
I'm about to run out of time. Is there any longitudinal research that studies the rate of success with your participants over a long period of time?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu
Good. That was a very short answer. I love that one. We have time for another five-minute session.
We'll go to Ms. Vecchio and Ms. Harder, who are going to share their time.
Conservative
Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON
Just quickly, last week I saw a screening of Over 18. It's based on pornography and things that have happened. Has either of you had the opportunity to see that documentary? I'll tell you a little bit about it, and then I'm going to throw it over to Rachel.
It's called Over 18, and a Toronto company did it. They went around and interviewed people from the pornography industry, especially from the United States, and the biggest issue was in Montreal, where we have the highest rate of pornography. It seemed unbelievable.
I would recommend that you and anyone else on this issue see it. If you want a real shocker, then it's quite a documentary to watch.
I'm going to pass it over to Rachael now.
Co-Chair of the Board of Directors, New Leaf Program
There's one called Pornland that's similar.
Conservative
Karen Vecchio Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON
Pornland, yes. Some of those things are just unbelievable. What's happening to some our eight-year-old and 10-year-old children who are watching it is unbelievable.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
One of the things that you mention, and please correct me if I'm wrong, was with regard to this in-school program, Changing Male Conversations. I believe one of the things you cover is why there is so much male violence. Am I understanding that correctly?
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Can you outline what you would cover in that course? Why is there so much male violence?
Co-Chair of the Board of Directors, New Leaf Program
You would talk about violence in sport. You would get the young men talking about schoolyard fights. You would get the young men talking about all the different scenarios. For instance, you get them engaged in what they see as violence in society. Then they start talking about it among themselves, and they start drawing conclusions. There's UFC, there are fights in hockey and so on, then they start to put it together for themselves that there are so many messages out there saying it's okay to be violent.
That's kind of what the whole program is about. It's engaging the young men in understanding how society is giving them all kinds of messages, and then showing them that they have a choice and that they don't have to be that way.
Then the next topic of conversation is, “What if you don't want to be violent? What if you don't want to be a fighter in sports? What if you don't want to pound guys into the ground like UFC does? What is it you can do?” Then we start talking about alternatives. Hopefully, they start talking to one another, and then it spreads.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
That's great. Would there ever be a time when you would bring, say, the men and their spouses or partners or their children—whoever it was they were violent against—into a room together?