Status of Women Committee on Nov. 14th, 2016

[Jamie Taras]

I'd say that the biggest surprise was the appetite for the conversation. Before we started, I was really concerned that it was a very serious topic. Our organization had done a lot in the schools. I would say it was all light and fluffy, and this was a serious topic. I didn't know how the schools would respond to it, or how the students would. I was surprised at how engaged the students are, because they see it. They are at the stage in high school where they're starting relationships and some of this stuff is coming up: the awkwardness, and what do I do, and is it okay, and the issues of consent, and what that looks like. Literally, we could be there all day talking with them, so I was very surprised in terms of their engagement.

We had a situation where we did a follow-up because we are trying to use technology and Skype calls. One of our players spoke to a group that he had visited, and in that instance he saw the guys laughing about something. He questioned them on it, and what came out of that was a disclosure of someone who was targeting high school students by drugging their drinks.

In having these conversations, we were able to get the RCMP involved. We were able to get the police and the school involved. As I said before, no one was having these conversations, and without having the conversation, we can't uncover what's actually happening in that school or that community.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Very briefly, Jamie, can you outline what your high school presentations look like?

I only have about 30 seconds for the answer.

[Jamie Taras]

It's a large assembly, with our player and a power point that we put on with videos and everything else. Then it's a breakout session where we go through scenarios with the students in a smaller group.

I hope that was 30 seconds.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's your time.

Ms. Malcolmson, you have seven minutes as well.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you to all the witnesses. To the Ontario Federation of Indigenous Friendship Centres, that is fantastic work. I don't need to ask you any questions, because your presentation was so clear, and we're going to take up a lot of your recommendations. I so appreciate your work.

BC Lions, because I'm elected on Vancouver Island, we hear a lot about your program. The Haven Society domestic violence shelter in my riding of Nanaimo brags a lot about the partnerships and the impacts of the work that BC Lions has done, always saluting the Ending Violence Association, the NGO that has really led a lot of the sports teams. I'm feeling especially relieved about the way that some leaders in sports are using their authority and their power and influence to really change the conversation.

Anne Taylor, the executive director of the Haven Society, was describing leaving a training session with a whole bunch of violence against women activists and educators, being at the top of an escalator where a whole bunch of young bucks down the escalator were kind of horsing around. There was a little bit of jostling going on and some regular members of the public were being affected, and from the very top of the stairs comes someone who had gone through the BC Lions training, his big voice saying, “Hey man, respect”, and everybody fell into line like that. All these women from the movement to end domestic violence said they could never have done that. They wouldn't have had the same impact. It was such a great example of leadership. It was a small thing, but it makes a big difference to people who have been on the front lines for so long. We're not going to fix this without solidarity, so thank you.

I was also really affected by a story I heard that came from a Jackson Katz presentation. He's the guy who was training the BC Lions. Is that right?

[Jamie Taras]

Yes, he trained us.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Could I prompt you to tell the story—I hope you know it too—about starting off a session by asking the male participants about their safety plan?

[Jamie Taras]

Well, he sat us down, and we're all big men, obviously—professional football players—and we had some of the University of British Columbia football players with us. He asked us all what our plan of action was, what our safety plan was, when we go out for a night on the town. We're all looking at each other wondering what he's talking about. He said, “What do you guys think about? What do you guys do when you're going out at night into a dark parking lot or you're going out to a bar?” We're said, “What are you talking about? You know, we make sure we shower, make sure we put deodorant on, and then away we go.”

We were so confused. Then he said, “Well, what do you think women do?” We started thinking about making sure they parked near a lighted area, making sure they don't get on an elevator if someone else is on it, or if men are on it, making sure that they have someone with them when they're walking through the parking lot, and all those types of things.

I've been married 23 years, and being a somewhat obtuse man, I remember going home and asking my wife Jen if she actually thinks about these things when she goes out alone at night, and she said, “Of course I do.”

You know, I hadn't really put myself in her shoes. Part of our training was understanding the reality for women, because I can honestly say I've never really gone out and feared for my safety. I think putting yourself in someone else's shoes gives you the perspective to have empathy in caring for them, and I think that's what we're trying to do for men who may never have thought of this, and for the young boys who are our future.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

That's how I heard it described as well, that women continuously actively plan for their own safety and that without an exercise such as what was described when Jackson Katz did the initial training for the BC Lions, it was impossible to relate to that state of mind. It was a very powerful opening to the conversation, and it then made the rest of the teaching that much more accessible. It brought allies into the conversation in a way that was a kind of magic, the way I heard it described.

Can you tell me a bit more about how the BC Lions' experience influenced the CFL's policy around violence against women? I understand that the Ending Violence Association was involved in that work as well.

[Jamie Taras]

Again, when we started the program, other CFL teams got interested in what we were doing and how we were doing it, and then the CFL itself did.

I think part of what triggered it is the horrific incident in the NFL with Ray Rice, when that video went viral. Then the CFL looked at its own policies and whether they actually had one around violence against women in the workplace. Then learning that there wasn't one, there was the ability to work with the Ending Violence Association of BC and Tracy and with us in our experience with the program to help to shape the policy for the entire CFL.

Right now, every employee of the CFL and every player has to go through training each year. We just completed our training with our players in November. We get to sit with a group of the players and talk about these issues. That's never been done. There is more to the policy than that in terms of what happens if an incident comes up on the field or with an employee. How are we going to deal with that? No incident is going to be ignored, and actions are going to be taken. Actions are not just going to be punishment in saying to Ray Rice that he is now out of the NFL. How is that helping the situation, the relationship? That relationship is ongoing, and there are now more financial issues with that relationship.

The CFL took a much more progressive approach, saying they're not going to ignore any issue but they're also going to deal with it proactively, getting help for the player or for the employee who needs it, and making sure that the situation is progressing in a positive way, rather than just kicking somebody out.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

The NDP will be advancing your recommendations around recognizing the appetite for young kids to start this education as early as possible, and also looking at operational funding that doesn't leave these organizations scrambling from year to year.

Thank you very much to all the witnesses for your work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's excellent.

We'll go to Ms. Vandenbeld for seven minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I want to thank all our witnesses for acknowledging the very important piece of this, which is that the solutions have to also come from men. It can't be a conversation just among women. It has to be both men and women.

Specifically regarding the friendship centres, you mentioned at the beginning of your presentation that when it comes to indigenous men and women the answers have to be distinct. You talked about traditional knowledge, about having cultural competency.

Could you perhaps elaborate on how the kind of programming you're doing might differ for instance from the kind of thing that the BC Lions or other groups working with other men do? How would you approach it?

[Sylvia Maracle]

When I responded to the question about the root causes, those causes are different for us. Canada as a whole did not experience something called the Indian residential schools because guess what it's name was: Indian residential schools. It wasn't called something else.

The displacement from the land, the Indian Act, all these things are unique to our community, as is the land, as is the language. The fact that we chose a title, which is translatable...we've done some work in British Columbia recently, and they don't have any problems using the language that is appropriate to them with the same concepts.

For us, it is an early intervention with respect to identity. It is the loss of identity through a variety of attacks that we believe have displaced them. If I can use my own cosmology as a Mohawk woman, our own sense of saying Skennen'kó:wa is a part of a greeting. It means “is the great peace with you”. If somebody's beating you up, guess what: the great peace isn't there. If you are using your fists or sexual violence against women, guess what: the great peace isn't with you.

For us, on those kinds of notions that come, some of our elders and traditional people, some of our philosophies, might argue that we're waking up our blood memories. We're going back, and as part of our recovery we see ourselves and understand ourselves differently, understanding why you're just pissed off. I don't know if those are polite words for your committee, but you're all human beings.

Those are important notions for us. It's not that I don't think they are for everybody else, but we have a different twist to it. A lot of our recovery, a lot of our sobriety, a lot of the issues in terms of dealing with all kinds of addictions in our community, and modern issues such as pornography.... Government will pay for a big satellite in our community, but they don't want to pay for a healing and wellness program at our schools, so we're really starting I think from that different context.

I think issues of when people begin to own stuff, and they understand they can be self-determined, and they understand these things around them, those expressions are often different in our community.

We have an enormous number of children in care, and the kids who aren't in care, 27% are in female-led households, so they don't even have healthy men in their lives to see how to behave. I think all of those created a different pedagogical approach that we need.

I'm trying to use words that aren't—

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much. That is very compelling.

Both witnesses actually talked about the fact that there seemed to be reluctance at first for men to engage in these conversations, and yet once they do, there is an awakening, a realization, a hunger, to have these kinds of conversations.

What I got from both of you is it matters who is leading the conversation. You mentioned the RCMP as not necessarily the right one, and of course, a sports hero is somebody young people will listen to.

How do you engage those people who become the thought leaders, the ones who will actually be listened to? This question is for both of you.

We'll start with Ms. Maracle.

[Sylvia Maracle]

I think Jamie has mentioned it. This is work. This is work that should be paid. It's something that should continue. If you can create a new job for an indigenous man in a community, you're leaps and bounds ahead of everybody. If you can create job descriptions that are so specific like traditional knowledge, a kind man, and no addictions, and on and on, you're going to get the crème de la crème of the community coming forward. That's important.

There are people who have been doing this for a long time. There are men who have been doing this for a long time. There are male elders and traditional people who I worked with 30 and 40 years ago trying to figure out who I was who were kind men. We simply took a cultural concept that we knew was there and said it's not everybody anymore, and we need to return to that.

I would like to tell you it's difficult to do, but it's actually not that difficult. There's a bit of tongue in cheek when I say this, but the thing about men is whatever space you give them, they will fill it up so give them the space then.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Mr. Taras, did you want to comment on the issue of how you used that leadership that people would listen to?

[Jamie Taras]

We do it much like we choose our football team. We select the guys. We know the guys on our team who would be interested, who have the right character, and who would also have the ability and the availability to do this. It is work for them. It is absolutely work for them.

We give them an honorarium if we're asking them to be involved in a program on a long-term basis. We make sure that we give them a little something to thank them for their work. With some of these trips, they're gone for four or five days from their families. They're visiting eight different schools, up in Prince Rupert or what have you. We certainly select them, and we train them.

Thank goodness for the Ending Violence Association. They're really our leaders in terms of the messaging and the issues and all those things. We went through three eight-hour days of training with Jackson Katz. It wasn't something that we just took a half an hour to talk about and then went out and did it. We are invested in it. It's from the leadership down. Our owner, our president, vice-president, have all gone through gender violence training. We are invested as an organization.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry, but that's your time.

We're going to our final five minutes with Ms. Vecchio.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

If you don't mind, I'm going to start once again and carry on with Jamie.

I am a huge sports fan myself, so I have watched a lot of sports, and there's been a lot of commentary on violence in sports.

Do you feel that is unfair? The violence against women is not because of something like a hockey fight, the scrums that happen in different sports. Do you think that's unfair, or do you see that sometimes a tendency for violence in sports can lead into the home life?

[Jamie Taras]

I think that the issue happens everywhere, and certainly the professional sports community is not immune in terms of violence against women and in terms of violence.

To your point, it's something that we have to deal with as an organization when we see it. When it happens, we have to deal with it. We do get questions about the violence in football and being against violence against women. The answer is that we love doing what we do. When I played, I played for 16 years. I loved getting into that physical confrontation. I call it controlled aggression. It's what we're paid to do. It's what we're trained to do. It's what we love to do.

There's a huge difference between that and beating up your wife or your girlfriend, or another man for that matter. That's a situation where you have a dominance or a power, and the person being attacked is certainly not willingly entering into that situation.

Those are two totally different things that I think we're able to differentiate between. I think in some weird way that's why our message works. They see us as this strong powerful person, but when you get to know us, we're actually very sensitive and somewhat intelligent.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I one hundred per cent agree with you. One of my good friends plays in the NHL. You'll see him drop the gloves, but I can tell you he's the kindest father and the best son you could ever ask for, and a great husband—not my husband—to his wife. I wanted to see about that.

Is there any appetite for the different national sports organizations like the NBA, the MLB, NFL, CFL to all join together to do something like this? You were talking about resources. I recognize that when we're all doing something, it's costly for everybody. Would there be the appetite for national sporting organizations to all join together to try to do something like this? Do you see other organizations.... You talked about football. In our city of London, we have the London Lightning, which is one of the professional Canadian basketball teams, and they were at an event for violence against women.

Would there be a way of trying to get all these together, so the resources wouldn't be duplicated and that we could do a better job? What are your thoughts on that?

[Jamie Taras]

I think the more people that enter into the conversation, the more people that jump on board to be part of the solution, the better. It's a matter of figuring out the best way to facilitate that. We have been approached by other organizations. We've helped other organizations. I think the more people we can get on board, the more likely we are to create change. I agree with you.

It is difficult, because every team has their own agenda in terms of the community as well. There are so many different community issues that they're being approached to support, whether it be cancer or what have you. The teams only have so many resources. That is an issue.

They have to look at what they are able to do, and what they are also prepared to do in terms of the organization. Each sports organization has their own platform there.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

That's excellent. Thank you very much.

Sylvia and Courtney, thank you very much for the presentation.

Sylvia, earlier today we started discussing Motion No. 47 regarding pornography. The reason I'm bringing this up is that you were mentioning that sometimes when we talk about it we will say that some of the first nations don't have the infrastructure. Do you feel that pornography is one of the key issues when it comes to violence against women? Do you see a correlation between the two?

[Sylvia Maracle]

I see a correlation between the two. One of the big issues for us in healing is about learning boundaries, learning about good boundaries and what's acceptable behaviour. When you've never had them, if you've been a child and someone else has controlled them, it's very difficult. When you have a lot of people living in a house and you have pornography that's available however many hours a day, I think it blurs the boundaries about what's acceptable behaviour and what's good behaviour. Yes, it has an impact, and yes, I think we should address it. I think there are a lot of alternatives.