Status of Women Committee on April 4th, 2017

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Could you outline some of the specific changes you would want or hope to see result from this training, in terms of how a judge presides over a case such as we're talking about today?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

One of the things I would say is this. I know you have witnesses coming, and I would ask the committee, if you do have a chance, to talk to them about their interactions with the Judicial Council and others who put together the training for both lawyers and sitting judges.

My understanding right now is that there really is no interaction and no transparency. We can't even see the kind of training that's offered at this point, so experts have asked, “Can we at least look at it and give you some advice on whether or not this is the most up-to-date, best kind of training?”

I think it would be a great step in the right direction for the training to be transparent and that they be willing to work with experts. A lot has changed over the last number of years in the understanding of the impact and trauma of sexual assault, and even of how sexual assault victims go through the experience or report the experience. A lot of times, they report it by way of sound and what they hear, not so much in a linear way.

There are all kinds of ways in which we could raise awareness and understanding among those who deal with victims of sexual assault, to help them understand why they are reacting the way they react as they go through the process.

Those are just a few examples. At the end of the day, I think everybody expects that if you are a professional doing a job, you should be trained.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

In your opening statement, you disclosed one anecdote with regard to your motivation for bringing this bill forward. Could you talk a bit more about what you've heard from stakeholders or about the personal stories that have come forward to you in terms of why this training is so important and why this legislation is so vital for our justice system?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I think it takes just one comment like some of the high-profile comments we've heard to make victims decide that this isn't a route they're going to take. It was already bad enough before the advent social media, but now it's widespread. Some of these comments are widespread. Just imagine the impact these have on a victim who's thinking about reporting.

We already know that we have issues at the policing level just in terms of training. When a victim goes through all of those steps, and then to think of going through the court and trial process, it is a re-victimization. It takes a lot of courage to do that and to go through the process, and then to think that you might be in front of either a prosecutor or a judge who doesn't understand the law and might make a comment like that.... Really, at the end of the day, it's about attacking the character of the complainant.

To be honest, I think it's ridiculous that we have a situation where people aren't trained and they're dealing with issues like this that are extremely traumatic for people.

It's timely. I saw an article the other day where someone wrote that these kinds of issues should be left up to judges to make the decisions. They're human beings, and we see these kinds of issues.... Again, I'll reiterate that the only reason we know about some of these cases is that there happened to be a reporter sitting in a courtroom.

Again, often these are oral decisions, not written decisions. When they're oral decisions, yes, they're transcribed, but if you want to get access to that document, usually you have to go through the FOIP process. You have to pay for it. It's cumbersome, even if you're trying to do research on the accumulation of these kinds of comments. There's a woman—I think it's Dr. Craig—at Dalhousie who has spent a fortune just in trying to accumulate the kind of information and research that goes to make the case that we need better training.

We need to see more written decisions and more transparency. Frankly, the Judicial Council should just step up and say that we're going to have better training, it's going to be transparent, we're going to work with experts to make sure it's good, and we're going to mandate it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

We'll go to Ms. Malcolmson for seven minutes.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, MP Ambrose, for bringing this forward.

On the New Democrat side, absolutely, we've been calling for some time for that federal leadership to try to bring some uniformity to how every element of the justice system interacts with sexual assault victims. We've certainly been hearing a lot of testimony at this committee, in a whole range of areas, that victims have a very uneven experience. Also, thank goodness for The Globe and Mail, for really sounding the alarm on the rate of unfounded sexual assault cases.

I'm going to talk for a minute about my own riding. It turns out that Nanaimo, where I was elected, has the lowest rate of unfounded cases in the country. Only four out of 114 allegations were dismissed as unfounded. The fantastic NGOs in my community think their work has something to do with that. Actually, I'm extrapolating that. They're not bragging quite that much.

The Haven Society, the Nanaimo Women's Resource Centre, and the family access centre in Nanaimo have all worked together to partner with the Nanaimo RCMP. In British Columbia, police services are delivered by the RCMP. They attend an orientation. They believe victims because of the training they've received. They've also worked together to establish community coordination for domestic safety that includes the crown and corrections, so that everybody who has some handle on the justice system within the city of Nanaimo works together. They also have a domestic violence unit, which is a formal partnership with the RCMP. We're getting good results in working together and having a consistent approach to training.

I'm hoping that you can talk a bit about how a model like that might give us hope that training at the judicial level also might also get us better results, better justice for victims, and a better experience, so that victims of sexual assault are more willing to go through the process in good faith. Also, what can you tell me about how the experience of front-line organizations might be able to inform this training that you'd like to see delivered?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

First of all, thank you for the support of the NDP, and particularly the support of your leader, Tom Mulcair, who has been instrumental in supporting this bill and moving it forward. I can't thank him enough. He was amazing to help out. I know how important it is to him and to your party.

You hit the nail on the head. The reason it's working in your riding with the help of your NGOs—and I'm sure the police in your riding would say the exact same thing—is partnership and the fact they're learning from one another. The police want this kind of support; they want this kind of help in training. There is no doubt about it and they are equally frustrated. I have spoken to a number of police who say they do all that hard work to get it to the next stage, then they deal with some of these issues themselves in the courtrooms, and they see it all fall apart for the victims they are trying to support.

It's at every level and it's wonderful that in Nanaimo there is such a partnership, but these organizations on the front lines know the issues. They know them first hand, since they're the ones who have been part of a lot of the good research. They have developed good training over the years and they know it works, so it just makes sense. My hope is that when you have witnesses come forward and we talk about this kind of training, we will find a way to provide them with access to see the training that's happening—and not only that, but also that they may have some kind of role to play in either helping to develop the training or just being able to comment on the training and to give advice about the kind of training people are taking.

Right now, there is training available, but it's minimal, it's not mandatory, and it doesn't go into the depths that we expect it to. We are very thankful for those places where those partnerships work. Sometimes it takes leadership from an NGO. It takes leadership from the police to create that, but we need to see that across the whole country.

Some statistics show that one in three women will suffer sexual violence in their lifetime. When you think about the unfounded cases, it really blew everyone out of the water to see those numbers, and then you have the police who are faced with that. Some police forces have said they are going to review these cases again. Okay, but now let's look at them with a fresh set of eyes, which is good, but a really trained, educated, and aware set of eyes is even better. Here is a great opportunity to get the organizations, like the ones you and I have worked with, to come and help. They are so willing to do that.

This is a good opportunity for people to come together and talk about what this training needs to look like. It's not just at the judicial level; it's at the police level as well. I know that you and I talked about what we can do. I've posed the question twice now to the Minister of Public Safety about what we can do, at least in the federal realm. Can we have mandatory training for RCMP? Is there something we can do to increase the level of understanding, at least in the RCMP?

This is a conversation we need to be having at all levels, because it concerns 50% of the population and has an impact on millions of women. There are effects on the mental health of women and on their careers and relationships. This kind of trauma lasts a lifetime.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

In the final moments, I'll just reinforce that NGOs have filled this gap because of the failure of federal leadership by both parties. We want to make sure they are supported in engaging in this process and funded to be able to give the kind of critique and constructive input we'd like to see.

Just to echo some of the concern I have been hearing, we need general support for the direction that your bill is going. We definitely want to make sure that this does not become or be viewed as a failed system for supporting victims of domestic violence and that the training doesn't inadvertently reinforce the bad practices of the past, but that the training is really opened up instead.

We're talking more about implementation now. I'm presuming that this bill is going to pass, but I look forward to further conversation.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you. I do too.

We will now go to my friend, Ms. Damoff, for seven minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Ambrose, for being here and for bringing this bill forward. As you mentioned, our committee recently studied this issue and came up with what I'm really proud of, recommendations for the government.

Our government is also really committed to this issue. Our Minister of Status of Women is also the first full minister for the status of women. She has been travelling the country working on a gender-based violence strategy, as you know. It's something that we're quite committed to.

With regard to your bill, the preamble talks about the judge's interpretation of the law. I want to talk a little bit about the actual appointments, because I see extraordinarily poor judicial appointments as a real issue. One thing we have done since taking government is to reconstitute the judicial advisory committee. It's unprecedented now in its diversity. It has 70% women, and for the first time ever they're receiving training on diversity, unconscious bias, and the assessment of merit.

When we look at former Justice Robin Camp, he admitted that he had very limited knowledge of criminal law. His background was in bankruptcy in oil and gas. In 2014 he stated that the victim should just keep her legs together or sink her bottom into a bathroom sink to avoid being raped. That was in 2014, and yet former Minister of Justice Peter MacKay appointed him to serve in the Federal Court in 2015. That was after he made those statements. So I mean....

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Are you suggesting that Peter MacKay is responsible for that? Look, these are grown people who accept an appointment after applying and going through all kinds application processes. The least we could expect is that they don't make comments like that. When they do, no matter if a Liberal or a Conservative appoints them, they should be held accountable.

Right now we don't have a system that does that. It doesn't matter what government is in power. The judiciary does not have enough accountability on these issues. That's what this bill is about. It's not about assigning blame to any particular minister of justice.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm just wondering how he could even get appointed to the Federal Court after making those comments.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

As I said, first of all, they go through a process. I am not going to sit here and defend any judge. And believe me, I would watch your comments, because you have no idea what some judge might say—or has said or done—whom your government might appoint. These people are supposed to be capable of the job.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I agree with you, except I would hope that any appointments would be looked at, after someone makes comments like that about a woman—

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

That's exactly what I hope we do here—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

—that we ask every single lawyer....

I should ask you, has your Minister of Justice asked every single person she's appointed in the last number of months if they had taken comprehensive sexual assault training? I haven't asked her that, because I'm hoping that we can pass this bill and we can move forward together. It's not about assigning blame. It's about everyone taking responsibility.

Look, the training is available for these judges. They can take it, but they're not, and this is the problem. We're trying to hold them accountable to a certain extent.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I agree with you, except the Canadian Judicial Council said, in former Justice Camp's case, that “In these circumstances, the impact of an after-the-fact commitment to education and reform as an adequate remedial measure is significantly diminished.”

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Well, again I would ask you, was the question asked of every single person who's been appointed to the bench since your government took office?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I don't know—

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Right.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

—but I can find out.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'm not here to assign blame. What I'm here to say is, look, we can make the system better.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

We agree on that 100%.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

So let's do that.