Status of Women Committee on May 9th, 2017

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Very good.

Ms. Simpson, if I can turn to you, I appreciate your presentation as well, and kudos to Irving Shipbuilding for taking on this partnership with Women Unlimited and with government and trying to increase the number of under-represented people in the workforce. I guess one of the things, though, is that it's not probably just a nice thing for Irving to do. It actually adds benefit to your industry, to bring in under-represented people and to be able to find labour from under-represented groups that normally would be in the trades.

Can you talk a little bit about the benefits to industry and what it means to Irving to have under-represented groups in this type of industry?

[Sarah Simpson]

Absolutely.

One of the goals of the national shipbuilding strategy is to build a sustainable marine industry in Canada, and so avoid the traditional boom and bust of shipbuilding industries. Really, in order to build that industry of the future that we want to see, we have to have a representative workforce. I know someone mentioned earlier that bringing diversity in brings diversity of ideas, and that is something we're really looking at. We have experienced shipbuilders working with us who have said that it's great bringing in female tradespeople, that they have great attention to detail, that they bring a new outlook to the workforce, so that's something we're certainly interested in. The investment for us is really for the industry. It diversifies our workforce, but it also helps the trades industry in general.

One observation the Nova Scotia Community College has made is that even having the female students in the trades classes exposes their male classmates to women at the top of their class in welding and in metal fabrication, and when they go to the workforce they know that these are their equals coming in. That builds the workforce that we want to have and the future that we want to see in the trades industry, in the marine industry, and the shipbuilding industry across the board.

It's certainly a long-term outlook and it's part of building that entire workforce.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Building that entire workforce and the partnerships you've made with Women Unlimited and with government to help encourage this sort of hiring, you feel, from your point of view, is good for business.

[Sarah Simpson]

Absolutely. We've hired 1,500 people in Halifax. We need to continuously be growing and nurturing and building our workforce so that we can have the best employees. The best employees aren't necessarily all from one representative group.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Is there anything you can offer as a recommendation? I know you partner with the Government of Nova Scotia and with the Government of Canada. Are there things that you would recommend or see as future possibilities or opportunities that don't exist now, for partnership with government, which we can perhaps recommend going forward?

[Sarah Simpson]

I think it's the true partnership of it all. When Doreen was saying that they built their program with industry and with government and with the college, we found the same in our pathways to shipbuilding program. There are 10 partners in that program—government departments, unions, our local Mi'kmaw Native Friendship Centre—and having everyone in the room on an equal footing from the beginning is quite helpful.

We know that government can't fund all of the programs and all of the NGOs, but where can government come in to assist? Doreen mentioned she has Status of Women Canada funding for programs with training and advancement pathways. We're working with her now to make sure that, as I said before, the women are retained at Irving Shipbuilding. We want to know how to look at our current practices and improve them, so that we can retain these students and keep going.

From my perspective, it is the partnership and being in the room together to figure out what each organization can do and where programs exist already, where funding exists already, where there are needs, and how we can come together in the most efficient manner. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. We can champion these programs as a unified voice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we're going to go to Ms. Harder for five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Ms. Watters, I want to ask you one last question.

If you look forward, is there an identifiable path by which you can climb the so-called corporate ladder, let's say, into upper-middle management? Is that identifiable for you?

[Denise Watters]

In the beginning, you don't know, but once you start your journey, absolutely. Irving is huge.

I come from different backgrounds. With my trade background too, I'm going to implement everything that I've learned in my life when I get to the shipyard. I see room for advancement in my life with other things that I've done.

I don't want to say that it's new, but it is new. They still need hundreds more people, and I know this from being there and seeing this over the last two years. Personally, for me, I see room for advancement, absolutely.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Laurel Douglas, this is Karen Vecchio. I want to just switch over to you.

In your comments, you mentioned that women have lower approval ratings when it comes to getting credit for their small businesses. I'm looking at that, and some of the issues that may be because of their credit ratings.

Are you looking at the fact that maybe they have not established credit? Are there different rules, or is it that they have not prepared themselves to apply for credit? I want to see if this is something that's an issue between men versus women, or if they're not established yet in order to have a credit rating.

[Laurel Douglas]

There are a couple of different factors that play in there.

Definitely overall, in the big picture, women's credit histories are perhaps less established than their male counterparts, because they're listed second on the mortgage quite frequently. I am with my own home, even though I'm the one who pays. Women are often using supplementary credit cards, so they haven't established their own credit. They may not understand the importance of establishing their own credit when they're organizing their families' finances. That definitely plays into it.

There are other reasons as well. I think there is disparity in approval rates for short-term credit, like lines of credit and corporate credit cards. The approval rate for male-owned firms for the last year that we have data was 22% higher for men than for women. I think part of that is because women may not have as much collateral. They don't have as many assets to provide as collateral, so that will also impact their ability to get financing.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I think we really need to look at the characteristics.

For instance, I have a son who is 20 years old. As soon as he could apply for a credit card, he did so, because in time he wants to buy a car by having that. My husband is also into credit. He's in the business of selling cars. He's in the room right now, so I have to say my husband is here. Unless people have their credit established, you can't even buy a car.

Is there a way that we can educate our youth to make sure they know how to establish a credit history, and that they understand with credit that you have to pay the debt?

[Laurel Douglas]

Absolutely.

That is something that we do in our training. We have a workshop called “the secrets of credit ratings”, especially for immigrant women entrepreneurs who come here and need to start a business because their credentials aren't recognized. They don't even know how the credit rating agencies build that history. Definitely, more education is needed, and that's some of the work that we do.

The other interesting thing about getting credit is that women are much more likely to be asked to provide more detailed financial information to support their applications for credit. They're asked to provide cash-flow projections more often, appraisals of assets more often. Their personal financial statements are being asked for more often. Those are the kinds of unconscious, gender-biased behaviours that we believe lenders are engaging in, which they don't even realize they're doing.

Definitely, education is important for the clients, the women business owners, and also for the lenders themselves.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

As you can see, the bells are on, which means there's a vote being called in the House.

I want to thank our witnesses today for your testimony. If there's any other information you think would benefit the committee, please feel free to send that to the clerk. Thank you for your efforts to advance the economic status of women in Canada.

We'll adjourn the meeting.