Status of Women Committee on Feb. 6th, 2018

[Marie-France Kingsley]

Depending on the nature of the complaint, of course, it could very well happen, and it does happen, that our senior investigators would involve and consult with the elder, or the aboriginal liaison officer, to find out exactly what happened or did not happen. Of course, we will speak fully to all of the relevant players and all of the facts will be examined with due process, and all of that—absolutely.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

So it is a difference—a positive difference, I would say.

Does the number of complaints made by indigenous women in the correctional system make up a proportionally larger percent compared with non-indigenous women? I'm quite shocked by the numbers I see. There are fewer than 600 indigenous women in the corrections system. I'm sorry I don't know the number of non-indigenous women in comparison.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I'm sorry, could you repeat your question about the number.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Are there a proportionately larger number of complaints by indigenous women in the correctional system than by non-indigenous women? Actually, I think you addressed that when you said there were fewer complaints.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Yes, in general.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Would you have any numbers for comparative purposes?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

We can probably see whether our system has that information.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

That would be helpful.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

We can send the information to the clerk.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you. This will be very useful to us.

The report recommended that the CSC issue a request for a proposal “to fund or expand community bed treatment capacity for up to 12 federally sentenced women, women who require mental health intervention, care and supervision”. What resources would be required to expand the bed treatment capacity?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Part of the issue is that the secure units are again mixing women who are deemed to have some sort of behavioural issue with women who are often acutely mentally ill or are chronically self-harming or suicidal. They're cohabiting, and it's just not appropriate. We believe there's a lack of bed capacity for women who are acutely mentally ill, chronically self-harming, and suicidal. They would be better served by being housed in an external psychiatric facility. Therefore, we need additional bed capacity for these women. There's already a contract with Philippe-Pinel for 12 women. There's also some availability in Brockville, but this is clearly not sufficient.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you.

I'm now moving over to Sheila Malcolmson for seven minutes.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

In 2016 the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women recommended in its report on Canada that we abolish the practice of solitary confinement and “effectively limit the use of administrative or disciplinary segregation as a measure of last resort for as short a time as possible”, and avoid such measures for women with serious mental illness. Last year the Native Women's Association of Canada made a similar report highlighting, for indigenous women especially, how hard this was.

In your report last year—which is great, thanks to you and your whole team—you reported that indigenous women spent nearly nine days in segregation, while non-indigenous women spent an average of six days in solitary confinement. Since your 2016-17 report, has the practice been completely abolished?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

The answer is no. The Correctional Service of Canada has implemented a policy to prohibit the placement of any offender, man or woman, who is seriously mentally ill. Our view is that the practice continues to happen. We're also of the view that it shouldn't be a prohibition in policy, but in law.

I sincerely believe that in a women's facility, you could de facto abolish the practice altogether, if you used those secure units with the same sort of rigour in making it a last resort and using those secure units to separate, and not isolate, the few cases that you need to deal with for a short period of time. That's the view of our office. To do that, you need to take some of the women who are more sick, or who need a therapeutic response as opposed to a security response, and transfer them outside to psychiatric hospitals. Those who can be managed in a therapeutic environment should be cascaded down to the structured living environment, which is medium security. You would then just have a handful of women across Canada who would be separated and not isolated. De facto, you would be abolishing it.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

In the Pacific region that I represent, women in need of emergency health care are transferred to all-male regional psychiatric facilities managed in segregation-like conditions. In this regard, I thank you for the strength of your report. Your language was particularly passionate and condemning in this area.

Last week at committee, CSC said the practice has still not been prohibited, and they gave some reasons why not. I'm interested in your views. Why don't I read what they said?

Anne Kelly said:

Now, it's only in an emergency situation and it's only for short periods of time that we do this, and the reason we do is because at that point the woman is seen by a psychologist or a psychiatrist she knows well, has her case management team, has her parole officer. Probably her family is there, so to take the woman and actually transfer her to the RPC on the Prairies or to Pinel in Quebec is very disruptive.

Is that a rationale for CSC not taking your recommendation?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

The practice of taking a woman with acute mental illness and putting her into an all-male institution, completed isolated, all alone in a unit, is shameful and a violation of human rights. I think there is no room for this in Canada. It's exactly what we're saying: you can sign an MOU with a provincial mental health facility in the case of an emergency, and then make the arrangements to transfer the person into federal custody in a much more.... It even goes further. When they responded to my annual report, not only did they say this was going to continue, but also that they were going to expand it to four other regions. For me, it's absolutely mind-boggling. It's an affront to every international human rights obligation that Canada has upheld, to be quite candid with you.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you for being clear. I share your concern.

You've sent letters to CSC in the past regarding lack of implementation of your recommendations. Can you give this committee any advice on why those recommendations are remaining unaddressed or underaddressed and what recommendations we might make in that regard?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I'm an ombudsman. We investigate. We do so impartially. We try to bring recommendations that are based, obviously, on human rights compliance, and compliance with the law and best practices in Canada and abroad. Sometimes legitimate operational issues make our recommendations difficult to implement. But for this committee looking at indigenous women, I think some of them are pretty obvious to me. Section 81 is one. The role of the deputy commissioner for women is another one. The need for a person who's accountable, not just responsible, for indigenous corrections, with the creation of a deputy commissioner for indigenous women, is another. I think there will be things in the coming years under new leadership, and hopefully with the input of this committee. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We're going to go to Pam for five minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much, Dr. Zinger and your staff and to your predecessor Howard Sapers for the tireless work you've done as an ombudsman for offenders in our corrections system. You really are tireless in your advocacy.

I have a number of questions and very limited time. I was shocked to see double-bunking at the Edmonton Institution for Women. I thought that Corrections had gotten rid of that and was quite surprised to see it was still taking place. Recognizing that there are space limitations, do you have a recommendation on the double-bunking of women in our corrections facilities?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

The double-bunking, again, is often just limited to the secure unit in the prairie region. That's probably where you saw it. Am I correct?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Yes.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Yes, as I said, those secure units should be used very sporadically. In my view, single-bunking is the gold standard—one that is recognized by international human rights law—and double-bunking shouldn't happen.

We are in a situation now where there are more than 1,000 empty cells in Canada, but unfortunately, because of the composition of our prison population, we have....

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

They're not in the right places.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

In the Prairies there seems to be an issue.