Evidence of meeting #88 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was parole.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for appearing today.
Mr. Michael, I'm going to start with you. We've heard a lot about the success that healing lodges have. I come from the east coast, where there is no ability for people to access a healing lodge. Do you know of any other programming or any ability for people to take part in a culturally appropriate healing ceremony or way forward through incarceration, outside of a healing lodge?
Executive Director, Willow Cree Healing Lodge, Prairie Region, Correctional Service of Canada
CSC institutions have had indigenous elders work within them for a number of years now, and I know CSC institutions also have pathways units that prepare indigenous offenders for that gradual reintegration. Willow Cree Healing Lodge, for instance, receives indigenous offenders from pathways units as well. They're often prepared very well within the pathways units.
So yes, I understand there are CSC institutions that have pathways units, where they're offered an opportunity to engage in indigenous ceremonies and cultural practices under the guidance of traditional indigenous elders.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
One of the things I thought was very interesting in your presentation is you talked about meaningful training and the on-the-job construction training that people who are part of the healing lodge have taken part in. Do you see that as integral to the reintegration and their success when they leave the healing lodge?
Executive Director, Willow Cree Healing Lodge, Prairie Region, Correctional Service of Canada
Yes, I do. It is very important. Our healing lodge, for instance, has witnessed tremendous success with that particular initiative, and it's an initiative we can continue to build upon, as well.
The socio-economic disadvantages that indigenous people face are pretty profound. A lot of the men who come into the system and are incarcerated need that additional support and help to prepare them for release through employability skills and training.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I thought it was interesting that you have an ability to have people mentored by a journeyperson carpenter, working in an environment building homes as a community through Habitat for Humanity.
One of the things we've heard is that women are actually given work experience in things like making underwear for men in the prison system, or flower arranging. It's not exactly what may be meaningful work whenever they leave the institution, and it won't really help them reintegrate, so thank you for pointing out that men actually have access to something a bit more fruitful than the women do.
I'm going to go to Ms. Parkes now, for the next question. You mentioned three things—the mandatory minimum sentences, the community release options, and the Gladue analysis—as your three main asks, for lack of a better word. I understand the mandatory minimum and the community release options, but the Gladue analysis.... Are you talking about scrapping that completely? We've heard that there's been lack of access to Gladue writers, and that because of the backlog, the reports are not done the way they should be done and are therefore becoming more of a hindrance than what they set out to do.
I guess I'd like you to just expand a little on the Gladue analysis, please.
Prof. Debra Parkes
I'm absolutely not saying to scrap it. In fact, we should make it meaningful. The problem that has happened with respect to sentencing, bail, and all the correctional decision-making.... The question of risk—risk to reoffend and criminogenic risk—is the ultimate question that decision-makers are focusing on. When you pile up those social history factors in the way that.... The Gladue analysis is meant to do something different. It's meant to show the context and the person, and how we can do something different with this person, and how we can take a different path. But often it has this other impact.
What I think it means is reorienting our thinking. It goes to the question of community release options and correctional planning that for indigenous women to get access to parole in a timely way—as they are entitled to under the law—we need to have the training at the correctional level, the orientation, and essentially the incentives, encouragement, and focus in the staffing, to be really focused on how you can get this person to that place, instead of asking what the barriers are. There are lots of good people doing this work. It's not that. It's just that the resources and focus are not really there on community release. It is always an afterthought to asking, “What is the risk? What is the community? What is the public safety issue?”
Obviously we have to be balancing that, but if you look, for example, at how parole is operating in this country, it's not operating in the way the legislation has set out. The most recent study that I saw shows that you only get parole if Corrections is supporting your application. In the most recent study, only 2% of people got parole without explicit support from the CSC staff. That's why indigenous women are waiving it. They're not getting that support, and they don't get timely access to the programs to address all of the needs that have been identified. That's why parole is not operating to assist them, and that's why they're going all the way to statutory release or, in some cases, all the way to warrant expiry, which is not good for public safety or their reintegration.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I want to go back to this Gladue analysis and the Gladue reports. We are hearing that there's a backlog and that people don't have time to write them properly. We know what your recommendation would be with regard to mandatory minimums and community release options, but with regard to Gladue, would your recommendation be to develop it more or restructure it? Obviously we shouldn't scrap it. How do we make it work?
Prof. Debra Parkes
We should have more resources into Gladue reports because Gladue reports that are done with a focus on what Gladue has intended with respect to what can work for a person are actually quite helpful. In most of the provinces, though, Gladue reports are folded into the pre-sentence report, which is focused on risk, again. In most of the provinces across the country, instead of having a Gladue stand-alone report that is done with this focus on what can work for a person, what creative things we can do, where we can allocate those resources, and what we can do differently.... It's not happening for the most part. It's done in the risk model through the pre-sentence report.
Thank you for asking me to clarify that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Excellent. Thank you so much.
We're now going to start on our second round, and we're going to have Stephanie Kusie for five minutes.
February 8th, 2018 / 5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Parkes, I'll start with you.
The three items that you mentioned—the mandatory minimum sentences, section 718, and the community release options—all seem to point to me towards self-determination and self-governance, a theme that we've seen quite significantly in the last few weeks of testimony.
In your opinion, what would be the ideal processes for both sentencing and rehabilitation? It's a two-part question. In addition to the ideal processes, what would be the evolution of where we are now in the corrections system to get to that ideal? For example, historically we've seen women in what was the historic incarceration system, and we've moved to healing lodges, and now the evolution of the process seems to be towards community release options. In your opinion, what is ideal, and what does that process of evolution look like, please?
Prof. Debra Parkes
That's a great question.
I have just one point of clarification. For the most part, women do not have access to healing lodges. The vast majority of women do not have access to healing lodges.
There is one CSC-operated healing lodge for women, Okimaw Ohci .Then there is one section 81 contracted healing lodge that has women, as far as I know. Mr. Michael may know a little more.
A start would be actually making that a meaningful option for women, but as I said, the tools are there in the legislation, so section 81 and section 84 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act provide all the legislative tools we need. It says in those sections that if a person is under sentence, or if a person is on community release or eligible for community release on parole, that the indigenous communities, whether it's a reserve community or an urban community that is more an amalgam of different resource organizations, can put together a plan, funded with federal dollars, that would allow that person to be in the community. That's the way forward. You actually don't even need legislative change.
So another part of the process would be to adequately fund that and let people know.... I was at Fraser Valley Institution recently, as I mentioned, and sat with a group of women lifers. All but one were indigenous and they didn't know about the opportunity for section 84 releases to their communities. One woman had actually gone out and done that research and was trying to make it happen but didn't have much in the way of support to do it, so that's one thing.
In terms of sentencing, we should reorient our sentencing, get rid of mandatory sentences for the most part, and reinsert the opportunity for judicial discretion to depart from them. Even if you were to consider them presumptive sentences, certainly for women there are lots of reasons why they don't actually address their situations. There is a need for that tailored response. That would be a start for those two things.
I don't know if I've answered your question or if there was another part to it that I've missed.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
No, you have. It was with regard to the ideal and then to the evolution. You have touched upon both of those in referencing the existing legislation, which is all to say that, again, it goes back to self-determination. What's intrinsic—if I ask for a glass of water, it's because I want and need a glass of water. Thank you for that.
Mr. Michael, I'll go to you next.
Have you had the opportunity to visit a female healing lodge?
Executive Director, Willow Cree Healing Lodge, Prairie Region, Correctional Service of Canada
Yes, I have. I had the opportunity to visit both the Okimaw Ohci Healing Lodge in Maple Creek, Saskatchewan, Nekaneet First Nation , as well as the section 81 healing lodge, Buffalo Sage Wellness House , which is in Edmonton, Alberta, and is operated through the Native Counselling Services of Alberta. I have visited both of those, yes.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
What were the most remarkable differences that you saw between the female healing lodges and, in your particular case, the Willow Cree Healing Lodge? What were their fundamental differences in terms of the culture, how things were run?
Executive Director, Willow Cree Healing Lodge, Prairie Region, Correctional Service of Canada
Obviously there is specific programming within those healing lodges geared toward the needs of the indigenous women there, but the model is quite similar in that the focus is on cultural interventions and holistic programming. In terms of that, there are very strong parallels there between what a men's healing lodge does and what a woman's healing lodge does. It's all about, speaking collectively, what healing lodges try to accomplish, which is to help indigenous men and women to heal, to overcome trauma in their lives, and to re-enter the community in a healthy and positive way. That is accomplished, again, through the restorative model of justice. Their approaches are very similar, but in the women's healing lodges, there is programming geared specifically to their needs.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
Excellent. Thank you very much.
We're now going to move over to Karen Ludwig for the final round of questions.
Liberal
Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Thank you both for your testimonies this afternoon. They were quite gripping. I'm not usually on this committee, so I found this really interesting to listen to.
The previous witness from Queen's Prison Law Clinic talked about police discrimination. This afternoon one of you talked about judicial discretion. What about police discretion? We've talked previously in this committee about mandatory training for judges. I would like to have your input on mandatory training for police services, and also on the need for advocates for these indigenous women as they go before the system, through the system.
I'll start with Ms. Parkes.
Prof. Debra Parkes
That's a really important question. This is the kind of thing you're seeing in the missing and murdered indigenous women inquiry as well. There's real overlap. As I mentioned, it's many of the same women whom you see in the criminal justice system who have been missing and murdered.
There is significant evidence now, however, about the extent to which indigenous communities and indigenous women are both over- and under-policed. When we talk about discrimination in policing, what we're talking about is the reality that certain communities are under more surveillance, especially if you're in an urban centre. I lived in Winnipeg for 15 years, and in certain areas of the city where there are many indigenous people, there's lots of policing.
There is also lots of evidence that when indigenous women on reserve or even in urban centres call the police for help, they are more likely to be charged themselves, in a “dual charge” or countercharge situation, when they are calling in a situation of abuse.
Now, obviously there are some cases in which those charges are appropriate; I'm not saying they're never appropriate. These are, however, the issues that you see: indigenous women are more likely to be charged in those situations; they're more likely to get a higher charge; and we see that because of the lack of actual protection from police, they sometimes don't even want to call the police, and so they'll take matters into their own hands. We see that too in cases involving indigenous women.
I know that some police forces are engaged in various kinds of training—I don't think it's the case that it is not going on—but certainly there's much more work to do to build trust in order for women to feel they are safe in those situations. There's certainly much more work to do there.
Liberal
Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Thank you.
I have another question as well for Mr. Michael about the healing lodges.
Is there any difference, in terms of participation or outcomes, for indigenous women who live in rural rather than urban communities and as compared with women who are from the reserves or who live off the reserves—or even compared with men, because I know that most of your experience has been with men?
Executive Director, Willow Cree Healing Lodge, Prairie Region, Correctional Service of Canada
Yes, my experience has been with men.
When you grow up in an urban centre you're more removed from the cultural connection. I think that's where healing lodges come into play. They're very important, because they help a person, especially a person growing up in an urban centre, reconnect with their culture and with the traditional value system, as they work with indigenous elders. It is here that they have a very important role to play: in helping these men and women to reconnect with their culture, revitalize themselves spiritually, revitalize their culture. I think that's the very important role that we play.
Liberal
Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB
May I also ask whether, in the holistic approach, the families are involved? If a woman or a man is at the healing lodge, is his or her family involved with the healing lodge as well? If you're doing this great work, which sounds wonderful, making transformational changes of those at the healing lodge, but it's not holistically bringing in other members of their family, sociologically you would think it would be very difficult to continue the really good work that has been accomplished.
Executive Director, Willow Cree Healing Lodge, Prairie Region, Correctional Service of Canada
Yes, they are involved; that's correct.
Obviously families have an opportunity to come to visit: we have a visiting program. We also have what's called a private family visiting opportunity, whereby they can come onto the property and spend some time with their family in a closed environment. As well, of course, there are opportunities to engage in family contact through temporary absences as well.
The healing lodge is thus very much engaged in trying to help facilitate the connection back to their own families and to help the families to heal in that way as well.
Liberal
Karen Ludwig Liberal New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Thank you.
I'm just wondering if either one of you might be able to comment on the highly televised case this past year of the woman who had been sexually assaulted but was incarcerated while she was waiting for the trial. It was an indigenous woman.
Prof. Debra Parkes
Yes. That was in Alberta.
An inquiry is ongoing into the conduct of the crown there. It was a crown decision to have her incarcerated, and she was brought to court in the same van as the man who is alleged to have assaulted her. There were huge issues associated with that.
It gets a bit at your earlier question about the need for training at all levels of the justice system and about the assumptions that are made about indigenous women as dangerous, as violent, as women we need to be protected from, and about not understanding that in this case the woman was not in fact the accused at all, but was the witness. There are deeply ingrained assumptions, I think, about those women.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio
I would really like to thank our guest panellists today. I'd like to thank Debra Parkes and Eric Michael for joining us and giving their testimony. We do appreciate it.
Before we end today's meeting, I have advised both of the chairs and I want to notify you that next week there will not be a sitting day on Friday. There has been some discussion around other committees, and some other committees have decided to postpone their meeting. We're looking at the fact that we only had committee business next week, so we're going to tag that onto the 27th. We'll take half an hour for committee business prior to starting our women and economics report.
On Tuesday, we'll be meeting, of course. We will have two panels with three witnesses each. So we'll see you next Tuesday.
Go ahead.