Status of Women Committee on April 8th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry. That's your time.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I'm sorry, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We're going to go to Ms. Hutchings and Ms. Sidhu, who will be splitting their time.

We will start with Ms. Hutchings.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Quickly for you, Christine, I know you didn't get to complete all your suggestions in your opening remarks, so in a minute, can you just finish off your opening remarks? Then I will pass it over to my colleague.

[Christine Wood]

Thank you.

There are definitely specific asks. I can explain why it's so important to have an online platform for peer support. Group therapy, outpatient treatment and inpatient treatment.... There is a model of inpatient treatment in the United States. USVA has an inpatient program to address soldiers with MST-based trauma.

This bears back to what Julie was just saying. I think one of the most important things that need to be re-examined at this point is the ethics and the professionalism we expect our leaders to have. I think that's part of the core problem. I think we need to revisit what we are taking an oath for. What does it mean? How do we hold ourselves accountable? Also, how do we hold our leaders accountable for anything?

I would like to see a justice system that holds senior leaders accountable. A CDS cannot be tried, so the system itself is broken. There are many different things, as Julie said, that can be done to address it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Sidhu.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank both of our panellists for coming forward to share their testimonies. We want you to know that the work you do with survivors will help us to end the culture of silence and bring an end to assault in the armed forces. Your testimony matters to us.

If you feel you are not able to complete your testimony due to time constraints, please submit a written testimony to us.

My first question is to Ms. Lalonde.

Can you discuss why it is crucial for the survivor experience to inform the solution in the path forward?

[Julie S. Lalonde]

Absolutely. I'm going to go back to the piece around third party reporting, because I think that's a really good, concrete example.

When Operation Honour happened, when there was an emphasis on our having to eradicate this behaviour, it was still framed as this: We have to get rid of the couple of bad apples. I feel like that attitude still hasn't changed, but the belief was report, report, report everything you see, but because it was framed from a legal perspective and not, as Christine said, from an ethical perspective, you had bystanders who were just reporting things right away to, frankly, just cover their own backs should it ever become public.

That's what happens when you don't have survivors informing the policy, because the survivor-directed approach would say what's best for the person who has been harmed in this moment. This isn't about checking off a box. This is about making sure that the person is empowered to make a decision.

Maybe that person doesn't want to report because they just want to confront the perpetrator and have a conversation with them directly, but you removed their ability to do that.

The last thing I would say is I really think it's important for us to address the fact that we have a woman who has come forward right now because she was outed by someone who leaked her story to the CBC. Whether they leaked it for partisan reasons or they leaked it because they thought they were doing the right thing, that victim was not helped. I think she has been very generous in saying that her accuser was also deprived of a fair trial because it was leaked to the media.

I think that's a clear example of survivors owning their stories, and nobody should be able to take them away from them.

[Christine Wood]

Yes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

[Christine Wood]

Could I jump in very quickly and add to that?

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Sure.

[Christine Wood]

A good friend of mine through the group I know was in a remote location when she was assaulted, and she did not want to report at that time because there were no supports around her. Someone reported on her behalf, and it was catastrophic for her career. She has released since.

Consent is the very most basic component of all of this. We were denied consent when we were assaulted. We should consent. We should have the ability to consent to what happens after.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Recently, Lieutenant-General Eyre announced that, in addressing sexual misconduct cases, there will be a change from duty to report to duty to respond.

Ms. Wood, can you expand on this distinction and why this has been received as a positive step?

[Christine Wood]

Yes. The distinction is that other members who may have witnessed an assault or inappropriate behaviour are no longer compelled to come forward and report it. A victim can choose to report and start a process when it is suitable for them, for their family and for their career. It is an important step that gives agency and choice back to the individual.

I'm sorry. I forget the second part of your question, ma'am.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

How can we include a trauma-informed lens in this study? What recommendation do you have for us as a committee as we run with not only the systemic impacts of this issue, but also the effects it has on individual survivors?

[Christine Wood]

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are asking if this new system is developed for independent reporting. It gives victims choices. It ensures their privacy and their confidence. It's a deeply personal issue so it needs to be treated as such.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's very good.

Now we have Madame Larouche for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Lalonde and Ms. Wood, your comments are very informative. I'm taking many notes.

You both said that people in authority and senior officers must set an example at all times. As you explained very well, Ms. Lalonde, you sometimes train soldiers who don't fully understand the issue and who don't know how they can set an example. However, it would be even more difficult to explain it to them 30 years later, when they're higher up in the hierarchy.

Do you think that senior officers who engage in deviant behaviour should face appropriate consequences in keeping with their positions?

I'd like to ask either witness to comment on this.

[Julie S. Lalonde]

I'll let Ms. Wood give you a more specific answer to your question.

I personally feel that the importance of this training must be emphasized. In the four sessions that I led, none of the senior officers stayed in the room. So, from the beginning, they didn't send the message that the training was important and that it had to be taken seriously. If the senior officers were to take the time to attend this type of training, it would send the right message.

Training must be provided to the members from the beginning. However, it's also important to keep in mind that the senior officers need training as well. They create the policies and lead the discussion on sexual violence. If they aren't trained in this area, they can't provide the right information.

I know that this is a fairly controversial topic that people don't like to discuss. However, the military environment and culture must be changed. Otherwise, the members who maintain the existing culture will only keep coming up through the ranks. To be successful in the Canadian military, you must believe in your culture. Currently, the culture in the military is toxic. If opportunities for promotion are given to military members who believe in that culture, it speaks volumes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ms. Wood, can you take a few seconds to answer my question?

[Christine Wood]

Yes, I double down on what Ms. Lalonde said. The leaders need to lead by example. One of the challenges to that is that five generations are serving in the CAF right now. Upper leadership feels clueless in some ways. I was in a meeting with General Vance two and half years ago and he looked me in the eye and said it was the first time in his career that he honestly didn't know what to do. Since then my opinion of everything has changed, but they need to be trained just as much as the folks coming in. It's top down and bottom up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's very good.

Now we'll go to Ms. Mathyssen for two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

We continue the conversation about that education, that piece, the fact that it needs to happen at least every six months for reinforcement; that it has to be continual throughout an entire career not just to be reinforced, but for those at the top to know what they have to do and their responsibility. I wanted to talk to you about the need for those greater resources—of course education—to put it into the supports the survivors need: the counselling, the programs. We talked a lot about what happened within the Canadian Armed Forces. I would like to shift and see if you have examples that you would like to recommend for Veterans Affairs Canada. Obviously there's a continuation there in programming and what's required. Could you put in your expertise on that and requirements for that as well?

[Christine Wood]

I could jump in on that.

The very first thing I'd like to say is that there needs to be greater co-operation between CAF and VAC, especially in that time of transition for a member. Also, in terms of the SMRC and their mandate, one of the expansions I would like to see is that they would expand to cover veteran survivors of MST.

I would also say that there needs to be a massive amount of research done into the fallout from sexual trauma in service, whether it's psychological, physical or spiritual. There are a lot of different aspects to the injury. There are a lot of consequential conditions that are not necessarily recognized by VAC yet.

Just to give you a quick example about me, since being diagnosed with PTSD, I've gotten an autoimmune disease. I've gotten fibromyalgia. I have chronic migraines. The list goes on from there. It's had a total physical effect on my body. That's something that I have had to fight to get VAC to recognize and to properly compensate me for.

I'll stop there. This is all happening really quickly. I'm not used to this kind of quick back-and-forth. I'm sorry if I'm taking too much time.