Evidence of meeting #24 for Status of Women in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was assault.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
It happened over many years, yes.
I appreciate your trying to do that, but you also said that the higher someone ranked, the more popular they were, the more protected they were. Do you think that's ultimately what happened with General Vance in terms of that internal ability to protect their own and to close ranks? In a lot of the same ways they shut you out, they did the same to protect him.
As an Individual
Yes, like many others, General Vance had to be protected because he was seen as a rising star during his career and therefore a good move for the military. It wasn't in the interest of the Forces to cast him aside or investigate him due to an allegation of sexual misconduct or assault. You don't want to tarnish the career or cause the loss of a valuable co-worker who is your right-hand man, for example. So General Vance's superiors or peers certainly had an interest in hiding these things, because they liked his work, operationally speaking.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
And those in positions of power above him at the time, who continued to ensure his advancement, did just that. It continued; that protection is at the very top the entire time.
As an Individual
Exactly, peers have no interest in reporting someone if they witness unacceptable behaviour, because they know that they themselves will not be protected if ever they are found guilty of inappropriate behaviour. This is a culture where you help those around you so that they will do the same when you need them.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Yes.
In the previous hour here today, Ms. Wood spoke not only about the trauma—the impact of her experiences, her rape—but what it did to her physically as well. The fibromyalgia, the constant headaches, a lot of those other physical side effects, if you want to call them that...implications. She said there were no services to truly help her with the sexual trauma, the experience she had, but also no services to help her with all those other effects it had. Was that your experience as well?
As an Individual
Yes, it was the same for me. One doctor even told me that, as long as I hadn't bought the rope to hang myself or the tube to attach to my car's exhaust pipe, I hadn't suffered anything really serious. Another doctor refused to treat me because it was common knowledge that I had complained to the media about the situation. A military psychologist analyzed me. He told me that basically I was responsible, that I could have made it stop, that I had a responsibility to stop it, but I hadn't.
So I really did not feel safe, even in medical terms, in the Forces. That was the defining moment, when I realized that I had to get out of the Canadian Armed Forces.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu
Now we're going to Ms. Alleslev for five minutes in the second round.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Your story is truly incredible. The process lasted for more than 10 years. I thank you sincerely for your courage and tenacity, because obviously it was extremely hard to go through.
The process started when you filed your complaint with the military police.
Can you briefly explain the process you went through and why, in the end, you felt the solution was unfair?
Can you tell us why you decided to initiate the process in civilian court?
As an Individual
I did not believe that the military court was truly independent. I didn't trust the military judge or that so-called jury made up of military men selected by the Canadian Armed Forces.
I had read about military law and its interpretation of criminal acts. Military law is somewhat behind the times; it is not as advanced as criminal law. I knew that my assault was going to be tried as if it were the 1940s and that the chances of acquittal were extremely high. But I wanted to continue the process to show the public that it didn't work. I feel I succeeded, because, when my case was heard in civilian court, the defendant suddenly pleaded guilty. He confessed to what he had done, even though he had been acquitted before. You can see a degree of absurdity in that.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Of course.
Knowing what you know now, would you go through the same process if you had to?
As an Individual
Yes, I would. I don't regret what I did, because it got results.
However, I would not go through the process a second time if I was assaulted again. Once in a lifetime is enough.
After the first acquittal, I wondered why I had done all that work for nothing. Now I can easily say I would do it.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you. Your process is making history and providing us with important information. Without an example, it's hard to change a process and show people how important it is to make changes.
Would you have done anything differently? Would you advise other victims to do anything differently?
As an Individual
Certainly, everything I did was not perfect. However, nothing comes to mind that I would not do again. Every action I took made sense and served some purpose sooner or later.
I was fortunate to have the help and advice of Mr. Drapeau. I was able to make good decisions because of the help from others. So I wouldn't change anything because I did everything I could. At the time, I was not able to turn to the civilian police. I tried, but it was not possible.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
I'm sorry, that was not a criticism.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
I asked the question to give me better information.
How are you now?
As an Individual
I am doing very well now. I am happy with the way things have turned out. The work I have done may help others in the future. I will not have done it in vain.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Do you feel that you have received the support and the compensation you need?
It's impossible to determine what sufficient compensation would be, but do you feel that there is a balance?
As an Individual
I consider myself very lucky because I received compensation from Veterans Affairs Canada as the result of the labour dispute. I was not able to receive any compensation for the sexual assault because the attacker was acquitted. There is also an out-of-court settlement with the government.
I am content and I can go on with my life.
Conservative
Conservative
Liberal
Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
First of all, I want to thank you, Ms. Raymond, for your courage all along and for shining a light on sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces. Thank you for that.
Ms. Raymond, given the presence of the chain of command, the military environment has another layer of complexity when subordinates report sexual violence. Can you please talk about how power imbalances make it difficult for these survivors to report sexual misconduct?
As an Individual
The difficulty is that it's like a civilization unto itself, more like a family. We are told when to train and where to train. We can't see our normal doctor; the Army decides which doctor we see. We have to show respect to our superiors at all times, even when passing them outside the workplace. The general public has no idea how hierarchical the environment is or the extent to which everything is supervised. Someone is always in charge of us and everything we do must be approved. We cannot do what we want and we cannot go where we want to report a situation, to look for assistance, and so on. That is the environment we are in and we can't get out of it.
I hope that answers your question.