Status of Women Committee on April 20th, 2021

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm very pleased that we have Professor Eichler on the line. I know there were technical issues.

I really want to ask some questions, Dr. Eichler, about your research, because you are one of the few researchers whose work is directly with veterans, with survivors and those who have lived experience.

Could you explain how important it is that, when we start looking at changes to processes and institutions and when we start looking at ways in which we can improve the systems that are in place, we bring in the lived experience of people who have been there?

[Dr. Maya Eichler]

Yes, absolutely.

I have a research partnership with It's Just 700 that is looking specifically at identifying some of the barriers to veterans benefits and services. Together, we did a study where we looked at 10 years of Veterans Review and Appeal Board decisions in cases related to military sexual assault. We have seen some very good changes at the Veterans Review and Appeal Board over the last two years. Those came about really in response to the advocacy of MST survivors and, in particular, the work of It's Just 700 and Marie-Claude Gagnon, and also very much in response to the class action lawsuit and the final settlement agreement.

To me, that shows how important that external pressure has been and how important the advocacy voice of survivors has been. We want to really ensure that, however we move forward in finding solutions, the voices are also included of MST survivors, male and female, but also of other military members and veterans who have suffered discrimination and have been long defined as “the other” in the military institutions. I think it's really imperative as we move forward.

I hope we move forward with a strong independent external oversight mechanism. I recognize that it will take some time to develop and to figure out the details, but I hope that even in the initial phase of discussing what the options are and how we move forward on what has been suggested by a lot of subject matter experts, we ensure that we have consultations with MST survivors, as well as women veterans, advocacy groups and LGBTQ veterans groups such as the Rainbow Veterans of Canada, but also the indigenous and racialized veterans advocacy groups.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you so much.

You did mention the independent oversight mechanism. What might something like that look like?

Also, as you mentioned, that can take time, but there is urgency in the interim. What do you think could be done in the interim in order to be able to deal with the urgent issues, and then how would that kind of mechanism look in the long run?

[Dr. Maya Eichler]

Yes. There have been a lot of different ideas floated over the last couple of months, or two months, I guess—from a watchdog agency to a civilian inspector general office. Personally, based on my research, I am really advocating for a broad mandate here, for a sort of civilian inspector general office. I would like to see some of the existing functions of the CAF ombudsman and the sexual misconduct response centre integrated into that new structure. What is important to me is that the new agency not only focus on investigations, but that it can also take some initiative in guiding what the culture change is going to look like in the military and in offering some accountability over those culture change initiatives.

I think it's really important that it is focused not just on military sexual misconduct but on broader culture change issues, and that the agency really looks at these issues as interlocking: sexism, homophobia, gender-based violence, misogyny and ableism, all of those interlocking systems that have produced a problematic military culture. We need to address them not in silos but together. I think an agency like that could do that, hopefully.

Now, you asked me about the short term. I think the very first step would be to assemble a group of subject matter experts, as well as survivors and other veterans advocacy groups, to begin developing a proposal for what this needs to look like. I think we can start small very quickly and then, hopefully, build up to a really robust external oversight mechanism.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Mr. Drapeau—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's the end of your time.

Here's what I would like, though, because we did get started a bit late. If the committee is okay with it, I'd like to give the Bloc and the NDP one final question each.

Ms. Larouche, you can ask a question.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My questions will be for Dr. Eichler, who had some very interesting things to say about the culture change that needs to take place within the Canadian Armed Forces.

Dr. Eichler, could you tell us more about this issue? You've already said a lot about the importance of an independent tribunal and independent bodies. Earlier, a survivor told us that she didn't know if there were rape kits on board the ship.

What can you tell us about the culture of sexual assaults and the shortcomings of the sexual misconduct reporting process within the Canadian Armed Forces?

How could these shortcomings be addressed? You talked about independent bodies, but are there any other ideas that you haven't had a chance to present yet?

[Dr. Maya Eichler]

I'm sorry. I didn't catch the full translation. What was the other aspect? Can you repeat that for me?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

As I said, I was struck when I heard that one survivor didn't know if there were rape kits on board the ship.

You've talked a lot about independent bodies, and you've suggested some solutions. I'd like to know if you've identified any other gaps in the sexual misconduct reporting process in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Do you have any other ideas for correcting these shortcomings?

[Dr. Maya Eichler]

I have it now. Thanks for explaining.

One important aspect, I think, is first to also look at the military medical care system, because this is a point where we can learn from other countries. For example, in the U.S. military medical system, anyone who goes to see a military physician is regularly asked about military sexual trauma and is screened for that. It is a regular screening question that is included in a routine way during a medical check-up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we'll go to a final question.

Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's clear from witness testimony from this study that Operation Honour only addressed the symptoms of the problem. They did not deal with the main causes of sexual misconduct, and that our Canadian Armed Forces is in need of a large-scale cultural reform.

In fact, Mr. Drapeau, you stated that the crisis around sexual misconduct in the military has worsened during Operation Honour. In your work, have you seen examples of what that could look like, how it could be achieved and how we could do that large-scale cultural reform?

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

One of the problems we have not discussed here at all is that, in addition to the problem of sexual misconduct, parallel to it, we have a significant breakdown in the military justice system. The court martial system simply doesn't work. Three of the four military judges have self-declared not to be independent, which is a crucial element for anybody acting in a judicial function, so they don't.... I've seen it. I've represented a number of victims of sexual assault. I can relate a case that perhaps make the points clearer.

She was a victim of a sexual assault by one of her colleagues at the military college. In accordance with the Canadian Forces tradition, a court martial takes place within the unit lines of the accused. If you are a victim—in this case, a cadet from the military college—and you lay a complaint against one of your fellow cadets, the court martial would take place in open court at the military college. Guess who the audience is going to be. It's going to be 60 to 70 to 80 cadets. She will be sitting in the witness chair for four or five days going into intimate details as to how she was dressed, where he put his hand, how she responded and so on and so forth, looking at 60 pairs of eyeballs of her colleagues—first-, second- and third-year cadets—who she will be living and serving with for the rest of her career. If she does this, this particular lady who's in the forces will never go through that again.

I've represented another person who had been assaulted in a unit in western Canada. The court martial took place within the unit line, which was within the canteen. All of her former subordinates—all of the non-commissioned officers and so on—were there. She was a health professional. She testified for three days. She didn't know where to look.

This is a military justice system where, in fact, justice is about to be made with a conviction system that is far below what we have in civilian court. The system doesn't work.

That's why, among other things, we need to take sexual assault out of the military. The military are trained to conduct warfare. They're managers of violence. That's what their trade is. They're not there to settle sexual assaults, to investigate sexual assault and to pursue it.

To ensure the safety, dignity and integrity of our women soldiers—I married one of them—we want to make sure that, in fact, they have a place where they can report the crime and the crime can be investigated fully by an independent police force that is trained and experienced in doing so in a court of law that does this on an ongoing basis. This is not taking place. Until this changes, victims will not have confidence in the military justice system. They won't report the crime and the problem will continue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I think that is an excellent final comment.

I want to thank the witnesses for their testimony today and for helping us as we move forward.

I want to remind committee members that our meeting on Thursday is actually 6:30 to 8:30 in the evening, so don't forget about that.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Madam Chair, is it not 5:30?

I just want to clarify.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I just saw the notice of meeting. It looks like it's 6:30 to 8:30.

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adjourn?

Seeing that it is, I will see you Thursday night.