Status of Women Committee on April 20th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Excellent. Thanks very much.

Now we'll go back to Ms. Zahid for six minutes.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to all the witnesses for appearing before the committee today.

My first question is for Dr. Eichler. Thank you for appearing before the committee today.

You have written a lot about militarized masculinity and cultural norms within militaries. We talk a lot about the need for cultural change in the Canadian Armed Forces. While it is easy to say, it is much harder to do, particularly in a hierarchical organization where the leaders have been steeped in that culture for all of their careers.

Are there any international examples we can draw on that show there have been successes in changing military culture? Would you like to throw some light on that?

[Dr. Maya Eichler]

This is a problem that a lot of militaries internationally struggle with. We can learn from other countries, but I think this is a real opportunity for Canada to lead and to develop new ways to move forward. We've heard, for example, of better oversight mechanisms in other countries, like the U.S., as my colleague just mentioned, but I wouldn't say that there is a clear path to follow, necessarily. I think we have to find our own solutions.

We have a lot of the domestic subject matter expertise to move forward. Subject matter experts across Canada agree on the need for independent external oversight, and we all agree on the need for culture change.

The one thing that I'm contributing today is that changing the culture is not just about changing ideas and attitudes. It's also about changing some very fundamental structures in how the military has been built. The ideas we have about what makes up the “ideal soldier” are actually grounded in a long history of policies and systems that have been set up in a certain way. I think we need to change the material foundation, the very design, of the military and the ideas that go along with that.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Dr. Eichler. My next question is also for you.

One challenge that women in any workforce face is balancing the challenges of a family and career. The child care burden disproportionately falls on women, and their careers often suffer because of it. The challenges are even greater in a military career, with its long and varied hours, frequent moves and sudden deployments.

Can you discuss how these stresses impact a woman already working hard to try to succeed in a very masculine and hierarchical culture? How important is helping with the family in changing the culture and helping women succeed in the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Dr. Maya Eichler]

Balancing both family and military work is a huge challenge from what I have heard from the many women veterans I have interviewed for my research. I think the fact that the military does so little to accommodate having a family is certainly a disincentive for women to join. It is certainly a reason that many women leave. That has been established by outside research as well as DND and CAF research. The challenge of balancing family and military work is the reason that women leave, so it's a retention issue as well.

We know that having available child care is a big challenge, especially when you are reposted, because you often have to join a wait-list again. Another challenge is having 24-7 child care. Military work is a 24-7 job, so you need military-specific child care in order to be able to do the job.

The final thing I would say is that personnel policies are an example of policies that have been designed with men in mind. The norm is the male heterosexual service member who has a civilian spouse who can sort of pick up the slack. Of course, if we want women to join, we need to find ways for them to be able to be parents and be “good soldiers”. However we redesign family policies, it will also be to the benefit of all the men in the Canadian Armed Forces. This is a burden that falls primarily on women, but finding good solutions here will benefit all members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

One final point is that a lot of women in the Canadian Armed Forces are single, but a lot of them are part of a dual-service couple, with both a male service member and a female service member. It creates additional burdens when two people in the family are expected to be available 24-7 for the military. That is an additional burden that I would like to point out. Being a female service member and a female military spouse is a dual burden that I would like to draw your attention to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

All right.

Ms. McPherson, welcome back to FEWO. You have six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's lovely to be back here. Of course, it would be better if we had a different topic that was not so difficult to hear.

I want to thank all of the witnesses for being on this call today, for joining us and for sharing their stories and their insight. It's a very important conversation. I'm glad I get the chance to hear some of this testimony.

I'd like to start with retired Lieutenant-Colonel Boland, if I may, and ask a series of questions.

Mr. Boland, you note in your testimony that you took several approaches to try to seek justice. That included submitting to the Federal Court of Canada an application for a judicial review of DND's grievance dismissal. You gave notice to the registrar of the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal to be a party to the tribunal hearing. You filed a complaint with the Minister of Labour on DND's breach of your Bill C-65 rights.

We are told that there are processes and policies in place. However, the people involved in upholding these processes are not following them. What oversight measures would you recommend so that these processes are indeed followed?

[LCol (Ret'd) Bernie Boland]

Thank you very much for that particular question. Certainly, for me, I have been persistent. There is no doubt, from my perspective, that one of the basic approaches of the government is to ignore when they get something.

You identified that I raised a complaint based upon Bill C-65. I'm fundamentally waiting for the Minister of Labour to acknowledge receipt of my correspondence. She hasn't, so I am pursuing that.

As my co-panellists have said, there has to be an independent and autonomous opportunity for anybody who has the need to or requirement to make a complaint to advocate for it and to approach it in a suitable legal adversarial fashion, so that you can confront and address the individual who has perpetrated misconduct—harassment, human rights violations, racism and particularly sexual misconduct—and to address those, and those you are dealing with, in a system of accountability.

All three of those things are being denied to me. I'm capable of advocating. I've been denied that right to do it. I'm prepared to confront my respondent. I'm being denied that. There is no accountability for that. It needs to be separate and independent.

Thank you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Throughout the study, we found large gaps between the policies, the practices and the culture of these workplaces. We have to go beyond the policies and change the culture of protection of those in power.

From your experience, over the last five years, where are the holes and how can we change them?

[LCol (Ret'd) Bernie Boland]

The process in and of itself on a single event is adequate, but the overall approach does not have what I would call a programmatic approach to it, so they dealt with it individually. Each one is separate.

There isn't a program around it. There's no compliance checking. There's no quality assurance. There's no verification that the execution of the process is compatible with its promulgated means and mechanisms. There's no feedback from those who are affected by that. As a complainer, was I satisfied that the process satisfied what it was supposed to do in a fashion that satisfied the pursuit of justice?

Definitely, you can't have those who are responsible for putting something in place to be policing whether they actually conduct what they are supposed to do, because as soon as you raise a complaint, it's effectively complaining against those who are supposed to be doing that.

There's no independence, and very few have the capacity to weigh things in a balanced fashion between complaining about the process or complaining about me. They all take it too personal and do not really do what they are supposed to, which is what they are paid to do in the positions they are put in.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

From your past testimony, you noted thatPrime Minister you brought the complaint all the way to the defence minister's office and the 's Office. It seems there was a failure of leadership all the way through the system, including the political leadership.

Did you receive—and I know you spoke of this during your testimony—any follow-up from the minister's office or the Prime Minister's Office? In your case, is this another example of the defence minister and his office ignoring complaints?

[LCol (Ret'd) Bernie Boland]

The only response I got throughout this was from Mr. Choi, the assistant deputy minister. Remember, I'm dealing with things over a five-year program.

Three years ago, or thereabouts, he basically either dismissed what I was bringing forward or thereafter ignored it. Because of that, I engaged the minister. In my correspondence to him, through his chief of staff, I was not asking him to investigate things. I was asking him to have things investigated.

The manner in which that was done, to have a subordinate, who worked for the deputy minister, absolve peers, subordinates, himself and everything else, was certainly deficient in the rendering of a just, legal and equitable approach to things.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We will now go to Ms. Alleslev, for five minutes in the second round.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to continue on that.

We heard testimony, at another committee meeting, from the Clerk of the Privy Council and the assistant clerk of the Privy Council. They talked about the importance of procedural fairness and how we needed to follow the process, and all of that.

From your experience, could you comment on whether the process and procedural fairness was, in fact, protected? Did anyone from the Clerk of the Privy Council Office or Governor in Council contact you about the deputy minister? To your understanding, was there an investigation or inquiry in any way, shape or form done with respect to your complaint about the deputy minister?

[LCol (Ret'd) Bernie Boland]

To my knowledge, absolutely nothing was done. I was never contacted by anybody. My point of view was never solicited. Procedural fairness, the right to that due process, the ability to advocate on my own behalf, suitable witnesses, all of that was outrightly denied to me.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Actions speak louder than words.

Regardless of rank and position, here are the words this committee has heard repeatedly from the minister and senior officials, including the Prime Minister's Office and the clerk's office. They've said that abuse of authority, misconduct, is treated “extremely seriously” and “procedural fairness” is protected. They have said they will stop at nothing to get to the bottom of this.

Was that your experience?

[LCol (Ret'd) Bernie Boland]

Absolutely not. I sat as a witness at the defence committee when some of that was being said. I just wish I had had the opportunity to ask that witness a question.

That was absolutely not the case in my experience and for my particular case, no.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Could you share with us the toll that this has taken on you personally? We think that this really only applies in many instances to women and to those who have the initial complaint, but it seems to be more universal than that.

Could you give us your sense of the toll that it has taken on you?

[LCol (Ret'd) Bernie Boland]

It's long, lonely and damn difficult, but I'm only partway through this. The real issue is what it is doing to, in this particular case, the woman who was directly the victim here and how she was made powerless even though she tried.

The entire institutional weight, influence, power, intellect and knowledge is directed against her rather than what it's purportedly supposed to be, and that's supporting her and her case. Equal justice for all is not being applied here at all. It's protecting—particularly if the individual is of a more senior position or higher rank.

I don't know what other characteristics are at play, but it's not based upon parity.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Would you say that those in senior leadership positions have the full...? You've said there's a breakdown and a failure of leaders to arrest and eliminate. Rather, they're protecting and condoning, and it feels like they have the power to wait you out.

Not only are they not behaving in accordance with their role and responsibility, they're also ensuring that the weight of the system is in their favour to defeat anyone who might come forward to get justice. Is that a fair statement?

[LCol (Ret'd) Bernie Boland]

Yes, it is. They have a clear strategy: fatigue, frustrate or bankrupt you. They can act with impunity and without accountability.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Those who may not have as much strength and the wherewithal to be able to pursue this would not be in as good a position—not that you're in a good position.

[LCol (Ret'd) Bernie Boland]

Absolutely. Maybe it's my disposition, but I write it down, record it, stamp it and send it, you know.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we'll go to Ms. Vandenbeld for five minutes.