Status of Women Committee on April 20th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we are going to Ms. Sidhu for six minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Yesterday, in the federal budget, we saw an investment of over $236 million with the goals of eliminating misconduct and gender-based violence in the military and supporting survivors. This includes peer-to-peer support, independent legal advice, support for community-based organizations, support for military justice systems and oversight. This will go a long way, Madam Chair.

I want to begin by thanking all of our witnesses today for coming forward and sharing their stories with this committee as we work to end sexual violence in our armed forces.

Ms. Batek, my questions are for you. Within your line of work with the Survivor Perspectives Consulting Group, what have you recognized as a recurring support need for survivors?

[MJ Batek]

We are a group of, actually, five co-founders. Some are retired veterans like me, and we also have serving members. It just came together as a thing that we needed to do as survivors. We are all injured. We all have PTSD diagnoses, so day-to-day volunteering is challenging, but we found that this is a way that we can give back and formally coordinate the perspective of survivors.

There are many peer support groups out there, and we are not a peer support group. That is not our intention. However, obviously, we want to coordinate with as many voices as we can so that, if there's a need for a focus group down the road with a specific identity factor, we can provide that. We can find those people, and we can have those conversations. The people who have come forward to us to talk to us....

Frankly, it's unbelievable. I've connected with classmates from the Royal Military College who I haven't spoken to in 20 years and who are coming to the realization that what we went through was not okay. We weren't allowed to speak at that time or our careers would have been over, and we were pitted against one another. It's incredible that we are now in this situation where we can talk about it and where we can make a change, and that is all we want to do.

Again, we're putting it on survivors who are volunteers at the moment, but we want to do this in a professionally coordinated format. It helps take all of those voices that are angry, that are yelling, that are shouting out there and then strip that down to the bare basics of what the problem is, what the connectors are and where the data is. We don't have that data. We don't know the full extent of this problem. I think that those are things that are very important if we are going to be able to combat this. We need to know how far it goes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

What do you hope to see in terms of specialized training for officers or policy changes in the CAF?

[MJ Batek]

We are hoping that the training program we developed, which is based on, as I said, civilian best practices, is completely different from Operation Honour. It had its successes, but it has had, unfortunately, as discussed, so many issues that it's become a joke.

This course is different in that it takes what has already been discovered as best practices within the civilian world and applies them to the military. For example, we talk about real world situations in the workshop. We're not talking about having it led by somebody who has been handed the pamphlet in the morning and starts out by saying, “Let's get this bleep, bleep, bleep over with,” which immediately makes everybody in the course think it's just a joke and that they just have to pay lip service to it and get it done.

No, we need to have professionally trained leaders for these courses, and we want to have survivors accompany those people in the courses so that they can provide that perspective. If you have somebody whom you know has been raped standing in front of you, you are less likely to make a joke and belittle that person, because they're standing in front of you.

We have heard from people who were sitting in these Operation Honour classes, and they said the entire culture was being made fun of. They are sitting there suffering because they are survivors and cannot speak up. They're alienated by everybody around them who is joking about Op Honour and whatnot. It's excruciating for a survivor to be put in this position.

This training course is completely different in how it will work towards changing those unconscious biases and social norms, and we are working on a pilot program for that. We unfortunately can't speak more about it, but it is in the works.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

In the previous meeting, Ms. Batek, we heard from witnesses that the option to submit their complaints online would make it easier for witnesses to come forward.

Do you agree that online tools would make it easier for witnesses to come forward?

[MJ Batek]

I definitely believe that online tools can be helpful in terms of anonymity. It is extremely difficult for victims to be face to face with a stranger, trying to talk about their situation. However, again, this needs to be outside of the construct of the Canadian Armed Forces and the chain of command, because if you know that the information you are presenting is going to go to your CO, which may be part of the problem in certain cases, then you're not safe.

The only way to make survivors feel safe is to ensure they are able to report to a system that is not bound by the chain of command and is not in the construct of the Canadian Armed Forces. It needs to be in its own area to be perfectly safe.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Larouche, you have six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Lieutenant Macdonald, Ms. McIlmoyle, Ms. Tulloch and Ms. Batek, your testimony sheds light on this sad reality that survivors are going through.

My initial questions will focus on this topic, which is important to me.

Many of you have spoken about post-traumatic stress disorder. We now know that the Canadian Armed Forces has evolved and are supporting soldiers with PTSD.

As survivors, do you feel that PTSD is treated in the same way among victims of sexual assault or misconduct?

Some of you have addressed this question. I invite those who would like to respond to me to do so.

[Lt(N) Heather Macdonald]

I'll take that a little bit. I would say that it's not taken the same way, and that because you don't get that diagnosis, you don't get the same supports as someone who is diagnosed with PTSD.

As well, there's a reluctance to be diagnosed, because for all that we've made progress and it's “you can still be promoted if you have a permanent medical category,” the medical system we have was originally constructed around physical ailments. If you get a broken leg, you get a temporary medical category, and then to come off that, you have a medical doctor say that you're a 100% fine. If you have a mental health issue, it's very hard to ever come off the temporary medical category, because there is no way that a doctor can say that you're a 100% fine. It quite often will lead to a permanent medical category.

There is still a lot of reluctance, if you have a permanent medical category, especially for something like mental health, like PTSD. They don't want to put you in positions that might have a lot of stress or might.... That will cripple your career in some cases. They, first, don't treat it the same as PTSD, so you're closed to a lot of the help that you'd get for PTSD, and second, there's a lot of angst around even getting a permanent medical category with regard to mental health, because our system is set up for physical ailments much better than it is for mental health ailments.

We need to separate those systems so that mental health ailments are treated by mental health professionals and not the same as physical ailments. Sexual assault should also be given the same support systems as PTSD.

[Dawn McIlmoyle]

May I speak for a second about it outside of the military context and in the veteran world?

I have found that a lot of the programs for PTSD will not accept you if you've had military sexual trauma. There's no funding for it, so even though you have the same diagnosis as some of the other people, you don't qualify for that program.

I meet a lot of the combat vets and what I've also found is that the PTSD is all the same. It's what has happened to us that's different. There needs to be and there is a call for some specialized programs that are more open for people who are abused. I tried to get into OSISS and things like that, and they didn't want me because I didn't conform to what their objective is. I had military sexual trauma, not OSI, and had not been deployed. I find that a lot of programs will look at me and say, “You didn't get deployed? Okay, we don't want anything to do with you.”

There is a call in the environment after you leave the military for some specialized set-up things that would help outside of the PTSD context.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

As you said, there's a difference in PTSD following missions abroad. The consequences are much more severe.

Ms. Batek, I'd like to come back to what you said about the difference in what is experienced abroad. You said that this culture of toxic masculinity had consequences that included child abuse, rape of civilians and domestic violence.

I imagine that the assaults we see in the Canadian Armed Forces can happen again in the case of the rape of civilians in missions abroad.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Go ahead.

[MJ Batek]

I am a military domestic violence survivor. I endured 15 years of violence that did end up with civilian charges against my perpetrator who was retained by the military and was allowed to continue his career despite having a criminal background in domestic violence. I'm not alone. When I finally reached out to other people, I realized that, especially among veterans' spouses, women or men who served and then found themselves in a military relationship or marriage, there was a high incidence of abuse, whether that was emotional abuse, violence or whatnot. It's a problem that I think has been downplayed over the years. It's not something we talk about. We talk about things happening in the workplace or whatnot, but the fact is that those things are coming home.

When you have a group of people who have this mentality and they go out into the community, say they go to the bar. Let's use an example of a group of men coming off a rough deployment or whatnot, they are going to treat the people, the civilians in that bar, the same way they were treating the women in the workplace, if not worse.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm sorry. That's your time.

Now we're going to Ms. Mathyssen for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to echo how much I appreciate all the witnesses coming forward. It's certainly not easy, but I hope the findings of this study ultimately help you and other people.

One of the things we have heard repeatedly, meeting after meeting, is that there seems to be this disconnect. We're hearing from people who had served, are serving, and they have a very different take on what's actually happening on the ground versus what those in leadership positions think. There's an idea that things are changing, that there is a movement towards that change, but I wanted to ask a couple of questions specifically about the treatment of people who do come forward.

We heard from the provost marshal—and SMRC as well—that the confidentiality of people who come forward is held at the highest level.

Can you talk about, potentially, the reality of its being different? How can we change that system to ensure that confidentiality? A lot of people have talked about the independence of it, but as it exists, what would you suggest?

[Emily Tulloch]

In my personal case, when I reported the incidents that happened to me, on the police reports that they made, where it said who the victim was, all it said was female aviator and my unit. It was confidential in that sense, because that was the same report that the CDS and the commander of the air force read. They had no idea who I was, but in a local sense of who I knew read it, it was not hard to figure out. Because I am in a male-dominated trade, it was not hard to figure out who the female aviator was from my unit.

That's the only thing that I think, confidentiality-wise, could be improved, but any ideas I have about that are quite slim.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It's reported to your direct commander and that's the problem. It's not maybe that it needs to be removed entirely and not reported to your direct COs. Is that what you're saying?

[Emily Tulloch]

Not really because I think it's important that the COs understand what's going on in their squadrons and their bases. If they don't know, then they can't fix anything and they can't bring anything up to their own higher-ups in leadership.

What I'm saying is maybe to just not include somebody's squadron or something, because I think the statistics are still important. It's still important to know what's going on in each base, but maybe the only person who really needs to know the squadron is the CO of said squadron, if that makes sense.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes.

Did anybody else want to add to that confidentiality piece?

[Lt(N) Heather Macdonald]

I would say that females are a minority, and especially when you narrow it down to a certain trade and certain unit, it's going to be very obvious who it is. If it's something that's happening on a ship, as soon as we try to have confidentiality and we start closed-door sessions to only talk to the people who need to be talked to, everybody on the ship knows. They know something's going on. We're in a tin can if you're at sea. There's no real space. There are only certain areas where you can get confidentiality, where you actually can close the door.

As soon as the higher-ups start having those sorts of closed-door sessions, the entire ship will know that something's up. Sailors gossip, so it's very difficult to maintain confidentiality and not have people figure it out. If there are any little clues, on a ship they will figure it out because we're just too close for it to really take strong effect.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Lieutenant Macdonald, you also talked about medical officers. We heard before from one survivor about a complete dismissal, especially around mental health issues. Can you talk about their training? You mentioned there are medical techs? Are they trained sufficiently? Is that something that needs to be looked at as well? There's a lot of training that needs to happen in leadership and so on, but in that medical sense, what do you think needs to happen there?

[Lt(N) Heather Macdonald]

We have a petty officer who is a physician assistant, and then we'll have a medical tech as the assistant to him. The highest rank in the medical is generally a petty officer. I think they're looking at maybe making them officers, but.... For mental health, I think that if you're deployed we have our padre, and I think that people will go to the padre a little bit first before they go to the actual doctor, if you will. I don't think there's a whole.... You talk to your buddies a little bit more.

We can only take so many people on ship, and the people we take on ship have to do multiple things. When you're doing multiple things, you don't become deep experts in that one thing. You have to be more of a generalist. We are very limited on the bunk space we have to get the job done that we have to do, so we have to choose where it's going to be most effective, I guess.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we're going to Ms. Wong in our second round for five minutes.

[Alice Wong, Conservative, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd also like to thank all of you, the witnesses, for telling us such powerful stories about your experiences, which actually have such long-term impacts not only on you but on your families and also on the rest of our society. I thank all of you for doing that, especially those who came out to tell their stories for the first time.

The following question is for Lieutenant Macdonald.

Lieutenant, you mentioned that we need to conduct an options analysis, and while I recognize that you may not feel comfortable in giving us official recommendations, could you give us some of the options that you think should be considered?