Status of Women Committee on May 25th, 2021

[Robert Haché]

Thank you for the question.

Students have been redistributed throughout the province of Ontario, which has a total of 90 spots for training midwives. Previously, these spots were distributed across the three institutions offering the program.

The 30 positions assigned to Laurentian University have been redistributed to McMaster University and Ryerson University. This leaves the total of 90 training spots intact.

It is an excellent program for people who want to study in the field. We always have many more applications for the training than we have spots available. The province determines how many graduates we will have and students we will take in each year. It is managed by the province, which ensures that the right number of midwives are active in the system. That number has not changed for several years.

In the future, we will continue to offer 90 spots throughout the province. The challenge will continue to be to offer the program in French, as Ryerson's and McMaster's long-term programs are offered in English. At Laurentian University, five or six people were studying in French each year, which meant about twenty people were enrolled in the program over the four years of training. This is a large number, but it reflects the challenge of offering a fairly expensive program to a very small number of students.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

As you say, the clinical placements will happen, as you will ensure travel in Northern Ontario and locations where training is offered in French. However, challenges will remain in terms of guiding people who want to take the training in French. I imagine that the same will be true for Indigenous people and that the challenges will continue.

Ms. Berger, I'd like to ask you a question about this.

You talked about student redistribution and the choices you had to make. Perhaps you can confirm that the issue with the programs that had to be terminated is essentially financial. That's what I heard you say. Can you confirm that?

What are your thoughts on the financial argument that was used to justify shutting down the midwifery program?

[Marie Josée Berger]

Thank you for the question.

I'd like to add something to what Mr. Haché said. Students who are currently completing their fourth year of the program are staying at Laurentian University. We will ensure that they complete their placements until the end of December, and they will graduate from Laurentian University.

Those in their third year will have letters of permission, but their placements will continue in Sudbury and Northern Ontario. This transition is confirmed.

Those in first and second year will transfer to McMaster University and Ryerson University to complete their studies. As Mr. Haché mentioned, the consortium receives funds from the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Colleges and Universities. All of this is being coordinated by the consortium.

When you look at the number of students enrolled, the programs that need to be offered, and the quality that needs to be provided—which is really important for a midwifery program like the one the consortium is implementing—one thing becomes clear: even though we're working together to implement the program and the educational curriculum, the fact remains that the revenue doesn't really match the costs.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Madam Chair, I've been told that ParlVU has no sound. There are many people in northern Ontario who are trying to pay close attention to this issue. I think we need to find out why they're not able to hear the testimony of the witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I definitely agree.

Clerk, can we pause for a moment until we get that working? Thank you.

Madame Larouche, you have less than 30 seconds left.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ms. Berger, as I understand it, the clarification you provided was about solutions being considered for the next step, which were discussed with Mr. Haché.

When you were talking about costs and revenue, I misunderstood the end of your remarks because Mr. Angus spoke.

So I will come back to my question. As I understand it, when the decision was made to cut programs at Laurentian University, it was because of revenue.

How do you feel about that argument when a health program like midwifery is involved?

[Marie Josée Berger]

This program is extremely important. However, Laurentian University did not have the revenue to offer a quality program and cover all the expenses associated with it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Excellent.

Now we'll go to the NDP for six minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Madam Blais, for being here. I would love to speak with you about midwifery, particularly in the north in communities like Fort Albany, Attawapiskat and Moose Factory, and I hope we can speak at another time. Today I'm going to have to focus on the situation at Laurentian.

Mr. Haché, the bankruptcy protection act has been around since 1933 and, according to the experts I've spoken with, it has never been used on a public institution, and certainly not a university. One of the tools it's used for is to give breathing room to be able to restructure.

I'm interested in the decision that was made to fire 100 professors, cancel 58 undergrad courses and kill 11 postgraduate courses in the midst of the final week of classes. Why did you sign off on that date? Why did you not give the students a chance to finish their year?

[Robert Haché]

Thank you very much for the question.

In effect, all students had a chance to finish their year. Let me start by saying that.

Under the CCAA process, we had an initial stay of proceedings from February 1 to April 30. That was the length the court gave us to initiate the negotiations and conversations that needed to be had for the changes that needed to be implemented before the 30th of April so that the court could consider providing an extension of that stay—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay, but I have to stop you there. Students did not get the opportunity to finish their year, because you were firing professors before courses had been marked. You were telling professors there was no severance, that they were out the door. You were cancelling and taking down the online course information before students finished their year.

I have spoken with students who have told me that their degree has been irreparably damaged. This was a decision you made. To tell me that these students got to finish their year is false. You had the breathing space with CCAA. Why did you use the most tense week in a student's year to cancel the year and fire the teachers?

[Robert Haché]

I'm sorry, but that is not correct. No teacher left the university before April 30. Most teachers—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

No, they were told they were going out the door, and that caused chaos.

[Robert Haché]

They were told—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You were pulling down the course information. Why did you not give them the breathing space?

[Robert Haché]

All students got to complete their year. The course information you're referring to is course information for next year. As I attempted to explain, we were required to do so because of the timeline of the court-imposed stay of proceedings. I will point out that all of the changes that occurred were negotiated, changes either with the academic senate of the university on the programming side or with the labour unions on the staff and faculty side.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I find that interesting, because on January 25 the labour union at Laurentian said they were filing a complaint that you were bargaining in bad faith. They also stated that you had saved $10 million since 2018 with cuts to the staff. I think it's really unfair for you to claim that labour unions signed off on this decision to start firing the teachers before the year ended.

I want to just step back from here, because I read your filings. They're extensive. It would have taken months of planning to make the decision to kill the midwife program or the physics program or mining engineering, so when did you start the process of evaluating which courses would be terminated? Was it n December or January? When did that process start?

[Robert Haché]

The process for evaluating the courses that would be terminated started after February 1. It was a process that included representatives of the academic senate of the university, which met many, many times. The university provided data—financial data, enrolment data—on the programs, and then a series of negotiations were held to land on the programs that were sustainable and could continue for the university and the programs that unfortunately needed to be closed in order for the university to have the chance to continue.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I guess the frustration that we have.... I mean, for us in northern Ontario, Laurentian is a symbol. My father became a graduate in his forties because he could go to a school in northern Ontario. He became a professor of economics. I've spoken with students who have come from across Canada to go to Laurentian because it's a symbol, yet what we see is this image of chaos and disregard for people I've spoken with who have been irreparably harmed. The idea that you used the CCAA to initiate this doesn't make sense, because, Mr. Haché, you told the students that last spring you were almost at a balanced budget. You said you were almost at a balanced budget. Then in October you said you had a debt of about $7 million. Then you told them in the last week of their school year that they had a choice: You were either going to shut the school down or do these massive cuts.

Who made the decision that those were your only two options?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Mr. Haché, are you there?

Ms. Larouche, do you have a comment?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Madam Chair, the interpreters are saying that for Ms. Blais and Mr. Haché, the signal is bad and they are having trouble understanding their words and interpreting them. I also see that their image is frozen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

All right.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Madam Chair, I've lost about a minute there, so can you add that time?