Status of Women Committee on April 11th, 2024

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Yes, good afternoon. I am speaking in French.

Can I repeat my last question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Yes. Please go forward.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I was repeating the question from my previous turn.

Have you looked at the American states that have implemented such alerts or similar ones, in order to take advantage of their experience to launch the red dress alert system and define its criteria? We know that California and Colorado have alerts of this kind.

There are also organizations that are working on similar issues around human trafficking. For example, the #NotInMyCity initiative is aimed at identifying people in distress at various airports.

Have you broadened your research to that point?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

I've looked primarily at two different alert systems—I guess it's the term to use—within Canada in relation to missing youth. One is run by.... I'm blanking on the names of them, but they're both subscription-based alerts, and we can provide those to the committee later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Clee, thank you so much. Our time is running short, so if you could do that, we would greatly appreciate it.

I will pass it over to Leah for two and a half minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

On your indigenous committee, how many are indigenous women? What's the number, quickly, please?

[Cst Darrell Rivers]

We have about 15 in total. I'd say that's about half.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Through the consultations and certainly things we've heard in committee, in fact, in every consultation coast to coast, people said they didn't trust police services across the country with making decisions about when alerts were issued.

Call to justice 9.6 calls on:

police services to establish an independent, special investigation unit for the investigation of incidents of failures to investigate, police misconduct, and all forms of discriminatory practices and mistreatment of Indigenous Peoples within their police service. This special investigation unit must be transparent in practice and report at least annually to Indigenous communities, leadership, and people in their jurisdiction.

I'm wondering, in the spirit of reconciliation and in knowing the violent history, particularly between police forces and indigenous women and 2SLGBTQQI+, whether you'd be open to having independent oversight on matters impacting MMIWG2S. If you do have oversight in place right now, do you have oversight specifically geared to ending, I would say, the epidemic of systemic racism within policing?

[Cst Darrell Rivers]

We have a professional tenders bureau that oversees all complaints made to the service from the general public.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

So no.

I have very little time so I want to move to the next question. It's about being open to independent oversight by independent women or people chosen by the indigenous community to make sure that your conduct is appropriate.

[Cst Darrell Rivers]

I think that would be a question for our senior leadership of the police service.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We're going to finish off. We'll start with four minutes for Dominique and four minutes for Lisa.

Go ahead, Dominique.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you for being with us.

I'm going to get right to my question, since we don't have a lot of time.

You clearly agree with the principle of a red dress alert as an approach that could be taken.

Do you think it should be a nationwide alert?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

I think we should be able to put one out nationally when it's called for. However, I think we need to focus the alerts in areas where the investigation is leading us, because if we were to put one out nationally for every missing indigenous woman, the alert would be less effective.

You don't receive a severe storm warning alert every single time it rains halfway across the country. It has to be focused so that those national level alerts really ring true, hold the weight and capture the attention.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Mr. Lieverse, if I remember correctly, you said that about 600 people were reported missing each year.

Did I understand correctly?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

In Sudbury we have approximately 1,500 people reported missing every year. As I said, the vast majority are resolved very quickly and without the need for media releases, without the need for alerts. Of those 1,500, slightly over half are indigenous women, generally speaking.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

I would like you to explain something to us in more detail.

Melanie Omeniho, whom we met with this week, said that in some cases, it could be more problematic to publicize the search for a missing woman than to keep her disappearance quiet, because her safety could be at risk.

Have you had to deal with that kind of situation, where it was better not to issue an alert?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

Absolutely, particularly in cases of human trafficking when we do have to be wary of what the individual who's trafficking may do if it's posted publicly. It is a balancing act sometimes.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Mr. Rivers, I would like to follow up on the comment made by my fellow member Ms. Gazan.

From what we've heard so far in our red dress alert study, it's all based on trust. However, there does not seem to be any trust in the police forces.

How do we square that circle? We want to do something to help indigenous women and girls. We want them to be involved in the decisions, but they don't trust the police, who must also be involved in the process. How do we do that?

I'd like a quick answer. I know it's a tough question and you may need more time.

[Cst Darrell Rivers]

I think one of the main components is that you need to get involved. You need to go out, identify all your resources, indigenous organizations within your city or municipality, wherever you're residing, and reach out, make connections and attend their meetings. Go to any initiatives that they have, support them and, in turn, invite them to sit on your advisory committee to and have open, honest dialogue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Awesome. Thank you so much.

For the final round, we're going to pass it over to Lisa.

Lisa, you have four minutes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

I'm going to go back again to this. I'd like to hear from you how you envision police being involved in a red dress alert. As you've heard from my colleagues today and as we've discussed, there is a lack of trust between indigenous communities and police forces across the country—for very good reasons.

What we've heard at this committee is that most indigenous people would prefer to have a committee particularly of indigenous women who oversee the red dress alert.

Detective Constable Lieverse, I think you were talking about the thresholds of when to send out a red dress alert. Typically, for an Amber alert it's the police who decide when to send out the alert. However, I think we're envisioning a different process for the red dress alert.

Could you describe exactly how you see police being involved? As you mentioned, you believe there should be collaboration with police forces across the country. How, specifically, do you see police should be involved?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

If we're talking about the large-scale highest tier of alert that we're blasting out to the entire public, obviously we need to be involved in that so that at least we can backcheck the story behind the missing person.

To give an example, I once got a complaint from a male who was looking to locate his ex. Obviously, she did not want to be found by him. She was perfectly safe. We need to be able to at least vet who's getting posted out so that we're not endangering that person.

The logistics of how that goes out is obviously a much bigger decision, but I think we need to be involved in that conversation if it's going to be run by indigenous women. It's going to be difficult. You're going to have to have clusters within the country, province or however to make these decisions and decide on these cases, because unfortunately there are so many that could go out.

I don't want the public to look at an alert and say, I've seen that name before, and just forget it. I've seen it with our media releases, and it's distressing, because it stops people from looking.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you for bringing up the point about how some women don't want to be found. In some cases it's women who are not missing. They're hiding and they don't want to be found because perhaps if they're found, they would be in more danger.

How do you deal with that now? How do you decide? How do you know?

[Det Clee Lieverse]

That comes from doing the investigation. That example I brought up was actually very simple, because I found a number for her. She had moved to a different jurisdiction, but I had access to their records. I called her up, and she said, “No. I don't even want to tell you, let alone him, where I am. He has no right.” I was able to shut that down and deal with that male and caution him for what he was doing.

You have to be able to put some investigation into it. It's a case-by-case basis on how you come to that conclusion.