Status of Women Committee on April 16th, 2024

[Lori Campbell]

When I think about sufficient resources, I think from the perspective of knowing that this isn't a new problem. It's not something that has occurred in the last year or two. This isn't a project; this is a long-term investment. There's been a long-term investment...that has had us hunted, stolen and murdered.

The resources that would go to this would be committed to long-term investment like the Amber alert and other things like that. I don't have a dollar value, but it needs to be able to be done and done well in order to have an impact. We can't have organizations having to reapply for funding every year in order to continue this work.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

If I understand correctly, when you talk about sufficient resources, you're talking about the importance for organizations to have recurring or perpetual funding. That is a priority.

Ms. North, you talked about an indigenous woman who disappeared and was murdered in Portage la Prairie and the police response, which was not the same as in the case of another missing and murdered non-indigenous woman. It was a poignant testimony.

Could the red dress alert have saved this woman who went missing in Portage la Prairie?

[Sheila North]

Neither of them have been found, and I think the families of the non-indigenous women don't feel that justice has been done either. Both families deserve justice, but I think that they saw the failures and inadequacies of the RCMP.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

In your opinion, if the red dress alert had been in place at the time, could it have helped find and save this woman? It's a reminder of how important it is to implement it.

[Sheila North]

It would have definitely made a difference. They wouldn't have been waiting days to hear a response from the RCMP and then told to wait a little bit longer. It would have been instant.

When the RCMP learned about the second woman, it was instant. The word was out. Media was out there. There were people walking arm in arm in the fields in Portage la Prairie looking for this woman. The same search was not done for Jennifer Catcheway.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Harper, in your opening remarks, you talked about reconciliation.

How could this red dress alert fit in with the important steps to achieve real reconciliation and nation-to-nation dialogue? We've just talked about all the prejudices that the RCMP can have, as in the cases that Ms. North has just mentioned.

I'll leave you to comment on the link between the red dress alert and this necessary reconciliation.

[Dr. Anita Olsen Harper]

I think, first of all, we would have to know about the history of colonialism and also the history of pre-contact times when our families looked out for each other, when the gender roles were complementary between men and women. We should find a way to get back to that because reconciliation is everybody's effort. It's not an indigenous effort. Part of it is, but part of it is the non-indigenous component of society on that. It's everybody's job. It's working together with the goal of where our family members can be cohesive, holistic in our growth and development, and protecting each other.

Of course, that's really easy for me to say, but at the same time we live in—I'll use the word—a chaotic society where we don't have that cohesiveness. Even on our reserves it's not cohesive where we are able to look after each other. One reason is entrenched poverty. It's not just a poor family being poor for a time, it's entrenched.

Yes, we definitely have to know that colonialism is ongoing. It's not something in the past. There's neo-colonialism also going on and reconciliation between the two groups can certainly help that along, and it should, especially with the findings of Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Dr. Harper.

Now we'll move to the NDP, Ms. Gazan, for six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

I want to start out by saying that it's such an honour to know all of you who are here today. I feel very privileged, and I thank you for being here.

I also wanted to thank the families of Tanya Nepinak and Jennifer Catcheway, who I also know very well, for being so courageous to share their stories.

I also want to thank your mom, Lori. These are difficult stories, mired in stigma. I want to thank your mother for allowing you to share her story. I, too, have a mom who went through child welfare. I was lucky that she turned out just like you, Lori—a scholar, brilliant, brave and wonderful. It's an honour to know you, as well.

My first question is for you, Lori Campbell. I want to talk specifically about child welfare. We know that child welfare is a pipeline to MMIWG. I think that also within that we know that, statistically, when women lose their children, it often results in a downward spiral emotionally. Often, kids in child welfare, we know, are invisible. They don't have family connection. They don't have community connection.

When we're looking at oversight, why is it important for oversight to be independent and grassroots-led by women, 2-spirit and other advocates, survivors and family members?

[Lori Campbell]

I think it's because we're outside of those systems. We bear the brunt of the impact of those systems. Like my mom said, she didn't tell the police because nothing was going to be done. We talk to each other. We know best how to care for each other and how to protect one another. What we need is for those voices to be heard and for the resources to be available so that this work can be done.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm talking specifically about frontline organizations. For example, in your testimony, you spoke about how you found your family, but up until that time, you were kind of alone.

Why is it important for organizations that are on the front lines of these issues to have involvement, especially in cases where there is no connection to family?

[Lori Campbell]

Like our elders say, knowing who you are really changes the world. It helps you to be a whole person, having that connection. The system does not help with that. I only found out who I was because I'm a good researcher. The system does not provide us with that information, but we do need that support in order to be able to make those connections. When we know who we are, we feel better about ourselves. We have our confidence. We're able to be connected, and people are able to watch out for us in ways that they don't when we're just another kid in the system.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

My next question is for you, Sheila.

I know that when you were the grand chief of MKO there was an initiative of reconciliation, in fact, working with the RCMP around improving systemic racism within the police force. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that very briefly and share whether you were pleased with the outcomes, and if you could offer some suggestions on how it could be improved a little bit.

[Sheila North]

I'll just say that, as a journalist and then also as a leader of my nation, I saw the differences in how police treated even me in either of those roles. I was berated many times as a reporter for asking pointed questions. When I became a leader, I asked the head of the Winnipeg police at the time what that was all about, and he showed up in full tactical gear. When I look at it in retrospect, I think it was an intimidation tactic. They tried to intimidate me to not ask questions or make points where I was trying to hold them accountable. That's been my experience.

I was put on two committees, one with the Winnipeg police and one with the RCMP that Anita and I were a part of. We were welcomed, and we were asked questions and for our opinions. However, as soon as we got really tough on them, really pointed and really direct, we were disconnected. They stopped asking us questions. They stopped inviting answers, and that's the way it is now. We have no closure from either of those councils, and they've dishonoured our people by not having proper closure.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

It's like opening up a can of worms, right? If anything, in the red dress study we're finding out that the trust has eroded. It's not just a feeling; it's a result of ongoing, systemic racism. You gave the example of the Catcheway and Nepinak families. I know that the Catcheway and Nepinak families are still actively searching for their loved ones.

We have talked about—certainly, pretty much all the witnesses have spoken about—the importance of it being indigenous-led. Do you think it's possible, due to the history and due to the ongoing behaviour, for police to be involved in this process?

[Sheila North]

They need to be involved, because they need to learn about the issue themselves properly. They need to be taught. They need to do their jobs.

I have to say that there's a distinction: I have had a better time and better luck in having these conversations with the first nations police forces. The non-indigenous ones have been very difficult. It's been hit-or-miss. That's why I feel that they also need to stay involved. They need to know what their role is and support the families properly, but they can't do it solely.

We see what's happening with Thunder Bay policing and the things that are coming out there. That's just an example. I would say that an inquiry like that, or an inquiry into policing, needs to happen, because this has been the common thread for our people. It's not just for this issue; it's for our people across this country. It's disparaging....

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Thank you, Ms. North.

[Sheila North]

I have to mention one more thing. Tanya Nepinak is presumably still in the landfill in Winnipeg. Since 2011, they did a very short search for her, and they still haven't found her.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

We will now move to the second round. It will be four minutes and four minutes.

We will start with Dominique.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

There are a lot of things to say, so we're going to have to be very concise.

Ladies, thank you for joining us this morning.

I'm pleased, Ms. North, to hear you talk about the presence and involvement of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and, more generally, the police. No matter where you are in the country, the RCMP is either there or it's not. In Quebec, it's the Sûreté du Québec. It doesn't really matter. Many of the women who have come to see us have told us that they don't trust the police at all.

Ms. Harper, if my information is correct, you are a senior adviser to the RCMP's national reconciliation team. Is that still the case?

[Dr. Anita Olsen Harper]

No, it's not. I did write a report on how the RCMP could do reconciliation with the first nations, the Métis and the Inuit in Canada. That report.... It resulted in a national strategy for reconciliation that I was not a part of, which says something, right? I don't know where that's at.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Ms. Harper, you did study the issue of reconciliation with the RCMP. Do you think that the red dress alert should also be set up in collaboration with the police forces?

Obviously, women and indigenous peoples must have a major role to play in the development and management of this new service. However, does the police have a major role to play, as Ms. North suggests, even though there have been failures in the past?

Would it be better to focus instead on the criteria on which to act, since these criteria could have an influence on whether or not there will be discrimination?

[Dr. Anita Olsen Harper]

For sure the police have to be involved in the red dress alert. I mean, there's no way that the police cannot be a part of it, but they should not be the final and sole authority on how it works, or be who gets to “push the button”, as we say.

Yes, they definitely do have a role. With regard to what the role is and how much of it they play, that should be up to indigenous groups. It should come from the grassroots communities and the families involved who have lost women and girls to violence.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Harper.

Ms. North, should we draw heavily on the Amber alert model, or even reproduce it in its entirety?

[Sheila North]

I think we can draw a lot from the experiences of the Amber alert. I think we can draw experiences from the silver alert. We learned a bit about some of that in some of the committees that led to getting the red dress alert established in the first place. I think we have a lot of good knowledge and best practices there. We have a lot to learn.

Again, I agree with everything that my colleagues here have said about the RCMP, the Winnipeg police, all of the other police forces and the first nations police forces, needing to be involved. They all need to have their hands on deck to support more than they ever have before.