Status of Women Committee on May 7th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 107 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

Before we begin, I would like to remind all members and other meeting participants in the room of the following important preventative measures.

To prevent disruption and potentially harmful audio feedback incidents that can cause injuries, all in-person participants are reminded to please keep their earpieces away from all microphones at all times.

As indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker to all members on April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents.

All earpieces have been replaced by a model that greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black in colour, whereas the former earpieces were grey. Please use only the approved earpieces.

By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of the meeting. When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down in the middle of the sticker for this purpose, which you will find on the table, as indicated.

Please consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. The room layout has been adjusted to increase the distance between microphones and reduce the chance of feedback from an ambient earpiece.

These measures have been put in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of today's meeting.

I'd also like to make a few comments for the benefit of the members and the witnesses present and online.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.

For members in the room, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your understanding in this regard.

As a reminder, all comments need to be addressed through the chair.

From 11:00 to 12:00, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, November 27, 2023, the committee will commence its study of coercive behaviour.

Before we welcome our witnesses, I'd like to provide this trigger warning. We will be discussing experiences related to violence and coercive control. These may be triggering to viewers with similar experiences. If you feel distressed and/or need help, please advise our clerk.

For all of the witnesses and for members of Parliament, it is important to recognize that these are difficult discussions, so let's try to be compassionate in our conversations today.

You will note that as your time is running near to the end, I will raise my right hand to indicate that there are 30 seconds remaining and give you a heads-up. We'll try to respect this so that we can get through the meeting as efficiently as possible and respect everybody's time.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. As an individual, we have Dimitra Pantazopoulos. I understand she has acknowledged that she can be called Dimitra. From the Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic, we have Deepa Mattoo, who is the executive director, joining us by video conference. From the Elspeth Heyworth Centre for Women, we have Sunder Singh, who is the executive director and is also joining us by video conference.

You will each have five minutes for opening remarks, which will be followed by rounds of questions.

I'd like to start by giving the floor to Dimitra. You have five minutes.

Thank you.

[Dimitra Pantazopoulos, As an Individual]

Thank you.

I would like to start by expressing my sincerest heartfelt gratitude for inviting me here to testify before you on a subject that is plaguing many children and women: coercive control.

I'm here to ask that Canada steps up and abides by the report written by Ms. Reem Alsalem, a United Nations special rapporteur on violence against women, which states:

[T]he discredited and unscientific pseudo-concept of parental alienation is used in family law proceedings by abusers as a tool to continue their abuse and coercion and to undermine and discredit allegations of domestic violence made by mothers who are trying to keep their children safe.

It goes on:

[T]he standard of the best interest of the child is violated by imposing contact [with a father] even when there is evidence of domestic violence.

It has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of training for judges and everything to do with their intentional and wilful blindness. For judges, it is contact with abusive fathers at all and any costs.

I am here to ask that our children be immediately returned to their mothers and that the pseudo-science of parental alienation and its like terms be banned and prohibited from being used—

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Excuse me, Dimitra. May I kindly ask you to slow down a little for our interpreters? Thank you so much.

[Dimitra Pantazopoulos]

I ask that the use of reunification camps and therapy for children as part of any outcome in legal proceedings be prohibited.

I ask that abusive post-separation fathering tactics of accusing the mother of alienating the children against them be recognized as a form of coercive control, that those judgments be reopened and that the children be returned to their mothers.

The domestic violence wheel clearly indicates that domestic violence is about control and entitlement. The more controlling a man is, the more dangerous he is.

Canada encourages women to leave in order to protect their children and themselves on claims that we have the right to live in dignity and in safety. However, when we do, that is not the reality we victims face. As soon as we leave our abuser, he suddenly becomes an even more powerful monster, a monster I would equate to the Greek mythological creature of Hydra: Cut off one head and three more grow. We leave one abuser, and suddenly, like the Hydra, he grows more heads and more abusers grow around him, empowering him to suffocate, torment and torture our children, us and our entire family.

How? As you all know, my children and I have suffered, and continue to suffer, from abuse and coercive control at the hands of my ex-husband, George Giannopoulos. My two briefs, as well as the supporting documents submitted to you, clearly indicate the severity of the abuse and control from 1997, which continues today.

George, as you know, also attempted to silence this very committee by threatening to sue it, along with the House Speaker and the director of legislation. If that is not an indication of his immense control and entitlement, I don't know what is.

Upon separation, George invoked parental alienation as an extension of his abuse and control. The more my children and I divulged abuse, the more it was seen as proof of alienation, and George, like all abusers, was able to grow more fierceful heads, wearing the hats of youth protection, judges and lawyers. In other words, all who, in fact and in theory, are supposed to protect victims of abuse were and are his most powerful and supportive allies and enablers.

Like all other mothers in this situation, as if George and our abusers needed more power over us, we lost custody of our children, our parental authority and the right to even see our children. We were forced and court-ordered to self-represent. We lost our homes. This coercive control that is being granted to abusers by court order spreads onto everyone in the maternal family as, somehow, the right to see our children is also removed.

As you all know, my mother died 1,000 days from the date that my children were barbarically abducted by court order. Although she had hours to live, they still did not allow her to see my children.

This is why I would like the coercive control bill to be named “Niki's law”, to honour my mom, to ensure this never happens again and to ensure that the tragic way she died is not in vain.

Just think about this. Murderers on death row get their last wish, and a loving, innocent grandmother didn't. Rapists and murderers are able to see their children while in jail, yet protective mothers are prohibited from any and all contact.

Coercive control knows no age limit and goes far beyond the children and their mother. There should be no statute of limitations for a victim to denounce abuse and controlling behaviour. Victims who have filed charges of abuse should be able to reopen their files and to add “coercive control” to their charges. We also need to be able to reopen our files post judgment in any court.

How does Canada expect victims to come forward with abuse when Canadian courts are just going to further empower our monsters? Countless children and mothers like me are threatened by youth protection, judges and our own lawyers that if we continue to denounce abuse or to speak about it, we will lose custody.

There are attempts to force our children and us into so-called reunification therapy, whereby the end result is for us to state, by coercion and force, that the abuse never happened and that the father is safe. Is that not giving our abusers the ultimate control over us?

Due to the youth protection system, lawyers, courts and judges all acting in solidarity with the abuser and the Machiavellian pseudo-science of parental alienation, our children were deliberately orphaned from their mothers and placed in danger. The documents before you are clear. Our children are suffering and are in danger, and there is nothing we mothers are able to do to help or to protect our children, because of orders rendered against us by Canadian courts.

I never had words strong enough to describe the pain I feel every day without my boys, until the day I buried my mother and collapsed to my knees as they were lowering her into the ground. Being without my children feels like a double funeral every day since October 9, 2019. That's 1,673 days today without my boys. What crime did we commit?

Canada needs to step up and help us.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you, Dimitra.

I'd like to invite Deepa Mattoo to speak for five minutes, please.

[Deepa Mattoo, Executive Director, Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic]

Good morning, Madam Chair and honourable members. Thank you for inviting me to share insights today.

I'm Deepa Mattoo, executive director and lawyer with the Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic, an organization dedicated to supporting survivors of violence, particularly marginalized and racialized women and gender-diverse individuals located in Toronto.

Today I aim to take you on a journey through the complexities of coercive behaviour, weaving in the story of Maria to illustrate the challenges that survivors face in seeking justice.

We are gathered here at a critical juncture in our understanding of gender-based violence. It is widely recognized as an epidemic, transcending boundaries of race, ethnicity and socio-economic status. Within this landscape lies the insidious pattern of coercive behaviour, a web of assault, threats and humiliation designed to control survivors. Embedded within gender-based violence, coercive behaviour is a harmful pattern. It's not just one event; it's a series, often accompanied by emotional abuse, leaving victims feeling trapped and powerless. The challenges posed by coercive behaviour are particularly pronounced within the legal system, especially for marginalized communities, such as immigrants, refugees, the disabled and gender-diverse individuals. This pattern of abuse often involves emotional manipulation, leaving victims feeling trapped and powerless.

Furthermore, as the committee just heard, litigation abuse is a prevalent issue across legal domains, including family situations such as parental alienation, children's custody, lack of spousal support and so many other experiences. There are also experiences within the criminal and immigration law.

Let me introduce you to Maria, a courageous woman caught in the grips of coercive control. Maria is a racialized immigrant woman with limited English proficiency. She found herself trapped in an abusive marriage here in Canada. Her husband, equipped with the resources and fluent in the language, manipulated the legal system to his advantage. He even flipped the narrative, getting Maria charged in a criminal case where he's the real perpetrator. It is a terrifying scenario where power imbalances and language barriers leave Maria unjustly accused and vulnerable. Maria's story echoes the experiences of countless survivors at the clinic.

In response, many jurisdictions have enacted legislation to combat coercive control. In England, Wales and Scotland, they have introduced specific laws criminalizing coercive behaviour. However, while these legal changes represent progress, they come with their own set of challenges. Criminalizing coercive behaviour has not always resulted in increased convictions and reduced rates of domestic abuse. In fact, in many of these experiences, survivors find themselves further disempowered by the legal system, facing barriers to justice. The legal system does not understand the experiences of survivors.

Can there be change? Of course. What can change for people like Maria?

We must provide training for criminal justice system actors and family law actors to better understand and respond to these coercive behaviour cases. We need increased diversity among our justice system professionals to bring vital perspectives to foster trust with survivors. We need—

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

I'm sorry to interrupt. Do you mind moving your microphone a little higher, closer to between your nose and your mouth, just for the ease of the interpreter?

[Deepa Mattoo]

Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Perhaps you could try speaking a few words. Introduce yourself again.

[Deepa Mattoo]

I'm really sorry, interpreters.

Please confirm that this is better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Raise the mic a bit higher, closer to between your mouth and your nose. There we go. Try that.

Could you tell me what the weather is like where you are, just to...?

[Deepa Mattoo]

It's chilly, but the room I'm sitting in is pretty comfortable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

They're going to give it a try.

Again, I regret interrupting you in the middle of your testimony. You can continue.

Thank you.

[Deepa Mattoo]

Absolutely. I will take it up from recommendations for the changes I was talking about.

Can things be addressed and changed for folks like Maria, whose survivor story I was sharing with all of you? A few things can change. One of them is the comprehensive training for our criminal justice system and our family law system actors to help them better understand and respond to coercive behaviour cases. We need increased diversity among our justice system professionals to bring vital perspectives and foster trust with survivors. We also need to ensure sustainable access to justice resources. Supporting organizations like ours that offer legal services can make a significant difference to a survivor's experience with the legal system.

Public legal education plays a vital role in empowering individuals and communities to recognize and respond to coercive behaviour. Integrating risk assessment into a legal proceeding is crucial for ensuring the safety and well-being of survivors and informing decisions regarding protective measures and support. We find there is a lack of collaboration between the stakeholders, which is essential to develop comprehensive risk management plans tailored to the unique needs of survivors who are affected by coercive behaviour.

In conclusion, I would say that addressing coercive behaviour requires a multi-faceted approach. By implementing these recommendations, we can create an environment in which survivors like Maria and our previous witness can receive the support and justice they deserve.

Thank you. I'm here to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Excellent. Thank you very much, Deepa.

We now welcome Sunder Singh.

Please go ahead for five minutes.

[Sunder Singh, Executive Director, Elspeth Heyworth Centre for Women]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, it will take me one minute more than five to complete my opening remarks. Do I have your permission to proceed?

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Perhaps the best way I will go with this is that our first round of questioning is with Michelle Ferreri.

Michelle, would you be willing to concede one minute of your six minutes to our witness?

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Yes, I would, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Go ahead.

[Sunder Singh]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thirty to forty years ago, I could walk down Yonge Street in Toronto and spot girls selling their bodies. Only God knows who was making them work in the wee hours of the night in the dead of winter.

Madam Chair, the times have changed. We live in a digital world where demand for girls comes instantly on the phone and the girls are supplied by the perpetrator to men who now demand girls of the ages of 12 and 13 be sent to them. This is all done behind closed doors.

Little girls who are not even teenagers are being supplied to meet the demand of men seeking girls younger and younger each year in our country. Canada, once seen as a beacon of safety and opportunity, is now grappling with the problem of human trafficking and being labelled as the hub for human trafficking.

Consider the alarming statistics: In the three years between 2019 and 2022, over 1,500 calls were made by 2,170 victims of trafficking to a hotline dedicated to those calling for help. A staggering 67% of calls from victims of human trafficking came from Ontario alone, and 90% of those calls were from women and girls. This is the province where many newcomer youth settle.

However, human trafficking happens all over Canada. This is mainly due to a lack of awareness among the very young and vulnerable. They start their lives here with desperation to find jobs. They struggle to pay rent, which is unaffordable, and to meet the expensive cost of living in Canada. Young people face financial difficulties every day. They do not want to go back to their home countries for various reasons. Here in Canada, they are facing the “frying pan into the fire” syndrome, making them vulnerable to labour and human trafficking as well as constantly fighting against the cost of living.

These girls are lured by perpetrators who pose as loving and caring boyfriends. Catching the pimps is very tough as they are active on social media, which is heavily used by very young people.

Human trafficking is a lucrative business and cannot be stopped. It can be reduced considerably by making young girls aware of the reality and how the system works. At Elspeth Heyworth Centre for Women, we have done so, and the youth we serve are now volunteers in the community who do well in schools, respect their parents, strive to complete their studies and seek employment. They are aware of the luring done by perpetrators posing as boyfriends. They are also aware that passwords and banking information are not to be shared with anyone. It has proven to work at a micro level and needs to be expanded to a macro level across Canada.

The laws are weak in Canada. The perpetrators are aware and take advantage of that and continue to reap enormous profits at the expense of our young female population, taking away their dignity and well-being. They're getting away with this because they are allowed to do so.

To properly address this epidemic, we must strike at its root cause, which is the lack of awareness among our youth and parents regarding the true nature of human trafficking. The illusion of glamour surrounding human trafficking can be shattered starting at the school level, where, with federal government intervention, children from grade 6 onwards learn at the start of school lessons every morning for half an hour to 45 minutes, with interactive discussions and stories on topics that could make them responsible citizens.

There is an urgent need for making targeted intervention programs mandatory in the school curricula in our education system, particularly in regions where trafficking activities are most prevalent. Basic human studies are lacking in our education system. This is also the reason we see a strong prevalence of domestic violence: Many mothers have been torn away from their children, who are put into foster homes that are also breeding grounds for human trafficking.

By equipping our youth with knowledge and awareness, we can disrupt the supply chain of victims and pull the exploitation activities out by the root.

What should schools add to the curriculum? Schools should offer frank discussions on the realities of trafficking, including its techniques and methods of recruitment and how traffickers have taken full advantage of the tools that are out there now, such as social media, immigration desperation and promises of housing, education and high-paying employment. We must make kids aware that pimps are actually everyday men and women we would never suspect; that society unwittingly trusts human traffickers disguised as employers, consultants, agencies, etc.; and that the Internet and social media also play a role.

Madam Chair, education alone is not enough. We must also tackle the demand side of human trafficking by enforcing strict penalties for those who fuel this trade. Social network advertising must be outlawed and perpetrators held accountable immediately for their actions. We must provide comprehensive support services for survivors, including skilled trades training and mental health resources to aid in their recovery and reintegration into society as skilled tradespeople. Additionally, we must remain vigilant in scrutinizing foster homes and other care facilities that can unwittingly become breeding grounds for exploitation.

In closing, Madam Chair, let us remember that the fight against human trafficking is not one we can afford to lose. Exploitation should have no place in Canada. Elected leaders should take cognizance of this horrible problem, reminding them that every problem has a solution.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you so much, Sunder.

Thank you, all, for your opening remarks.

We'd like to move first to the Conservative Party for five minutes.

Michelle.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair, and thank you very much to our witnesses today.

This is a very emotional, powerful study, as many of them are that we do here in status of women. Coercive control is what we're looking at.

I'm going to start with you, Ms. Singh. Thank you for your testimony. This committee did a human trafficking study, and in my community of Peterborough, Ontario, we have the third-highest rate of human trafficking in the country. Young kids, in particular young girls, are at risk, so I appreciate your testimony around human trafficking and the connection with coercive control.

You focused a lot on education, which I think is incredible, because it's the upstream end, basically, being upstream as opposed to intervention. One of the things and one of the points of how we operate here is to get recommendations from witnesses into the report, but a lot of education is provincial jurisdiction, so what I would be asking you is where you see the federal government's role.

As much as I think educating kids in school is critical, I think one of the pieces I would also ask you about is educating parents. You have a lot of parents who don't know how to use social media, and they freely allow their children access to it. We have stories of kids who are sitting literally beside their parents on a couch, watching a Raptors game and being human trafficked, and the parent has no idea.

Another woman I spoke with, who runs Little Warriors out of Alberta, an incredible organization helping child survivors, says that for the first time in their 10 years they have parents trafficking their children, not for drugs or money, but because they can't afford to eat. It's shocking, absolutely shocking.

So as much as I think we need to reach the children to educate them, because I often think they're so much smarter and quicker than we are, where do you see the federal government's role in reaching parents who don't know any different? Kids who are exposed to unhealthy relationships, kids who see a coercive control marriage or partnership but have no idea that that's what that is, because that's their normal.... Where do you see the federal government's role without intervening in your freedom and your ability to live your life?

I'm sorry. That's a big question.

[Sunder Singh]

Thank you for all the information you have shared with us. It is critical.

The funding for the province trickles from the federal government coffers, and it has to be made mandatory for the provincial government to have in schools an educational program making it mandatory, first thing in the morning, to have discussions with children, share stories in a way that they understand what responsible citizens would mean and that gender equality is what makes the world a balanced world. It has to be taught in school on a daily basis.

For parents' education, at Elspeth Heyworth Centre we have had programs for parents, to help them understand, so the federal government can fund community centres where parents come for community programs, where the information, the awareness of domestic violence and human trafficking, can be imparted to them.

Of course, I understand the educational piece is a provincial responsibility, but the funds come from the federal government.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you for that. I think one of the pieces that we have to dance around is that the toothpaste is out of the tube in terms of kids having access to social media and having phones at younger ages. I'm still not sold on the fact that the government's telling parents how to do that, but I also see the very negative implications of kids on their phones and screens and the addiction parents have to their cellphones.

We know that confident children are braver regarding predators—children who have higher self-esteem, children who are accomplishing things. That comes through sports. That comes through activities. That can come through theatre, and we have fewer kids ultimately doing these things because they're staying home. They're playing video games. They're stuck on screens. They don't know how to interact with people as well as they used to. I would love to see more programming around that, encouraging kids to get outside and disconnect to connect, basically.

I think my time is up, unfortunately.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Unfortunately, it is.

If you can, give some kind of response in less than 15 seconds. If not, perhaps you can encapsulate your answer in someone else's time.