Status of Women Committee on March 29th, 2022

[Lisa Crawford]

Yes, we do, definitely. That's why for Cut It Out we offer it online. One of us who is certified to teach it can definitely go online and can teach it, but yes, the numbers definitely are different in rural regions, for sure, and there's a lot less access to the education. That's why we want to offer it online also, so then it really is accessible for everyone—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I'm sorry. We're going to now move on to our next six minutes. I'm going to pass the floor over to Leah Gazan.

Leah, you have the floor.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses for being here today.

Mitch, you're a superhero in Winnipeg. You've won two Governor General's awards for your work. What you are doing is working. I've had the privilege of going on walks with you and some of the men you work with, who are just outstanding, kind, gentle human beings—not always, as you've shared.

Can you explain what action-based therapy is? Because that's what you're doing: action-based therapy with men, young boys or diverse genders.

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

Thank you for the question.

It's based on a wraparound approach. When a man comes to us asking for and wanting and needing help, we establish a relationship. We do it in as non-judgmental way as we can in terms of the person. We certainly judge behaviour, though, because those are two different things. We let folks know early on our stance on the treatment of women and girls. That wraparound is based on relationships. It's based on accessibility. The men have access to us on a 24-hour basis. In rotating shifts we respond to men.

What we don't have is physical space. There's no shelter for men in Winnipeg in terms of domestic violence. Whether the man is the perpetrator of that violence or is receiving that violence, there's no place for men to go physically. We are on call. We are able to meet men where they're at physically, on their own time. We do land-based activities. In terms of using an indigenous lens, we use ceremony. We use lateral empathy and kindness, giving back to the community.

We support women in their endeavours to bring justice to this issue. One great example of that is the Mama Bear Clan. The Mama Bear Clan was created by the women of North Point Douglas Women's Centre in north Winnipeg. They have a grandmothers council and they have a women's warrior circle. They ask the men to come and support them in protecting women. This is a non-criminal, non-policing way of dealing with the community.

In earlier testimony, Ms. MacGregor really encouraged this type of thing. I was glad to hear that from her.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I want to build on that. We've heard a lot about how to deal with individuals who perpetrate violence. I'm of the thought that punishing people who've already experienced significant trauma and violence in their own life—as little boys, as you mentioned—is not the way forward.

You talked about lateral empathy and lateral kindness. It sounds very simple, but it's actually not. Why is that a more effective intervention than punishment?

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

I think there's a sense of responsibility and accountability. When you've wronged someone, it's a way of making amends, making something as right as possible, and playing a part in that. That's what I described. We men who have done the healing work have been asked by women in the community to come and help them—help protect them, help them deal with their abuser—and we do that. Then we really, really encourage that man to come and be with us, learn from us, work with us and embark on their healing journey.

The model with the Mama Bear Clan is led by the women and supported by the men. That is an indigenous governance model. That's what we employ.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I know that you had an opportunity to speak with Minister Ien. One of the examples when we met with her.... You were talking about a situation where a man was being violent, and you sat with that man, encouraged his help and talked about consequences for behaviour in a non-judgmental way.

We don't have a lot of time, but can you share a little bit about this story?

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

Yes. I did allude to this in my earlier presentation.

In this particular instance, in this particular example, we were called to the home. Women helped this mom and spouse pack up all her things with her children while we sat on each side of this fellow on the couch in the home. He knew not to move. We were there to bring safety to that process.

In that moment, he did feel shame. He did feel regret in that moment. Once his family had packed up and left, we were able to turn to him. Through his tears, he committed to come to work with us, and he has.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Mitch, thanks very much for that testimony.

For the next round of questions, we're going to do three minutes for both...and I don't know if it's going to be Shelby or Dominique. It will be three minutes for Sonia, and a minute and a half for both Adréanne and Leah.

I'm going to pass it over, and I see Shelby there.

Shelby, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to address my questions to Mr. Bourbonniere.

I'll start by suggesting that boys and men who survive sexual violence can experience serious psychological and emotional fallout. This is not news to anyone, but I think it's much more common than what we think. My question is on how we are supposed to teach boys that it's okay.... Boys are taught to be strong and tough and sexually dominate, and not so much sensitive and real; whereas girls are taught to be attractive and submissive, according to many studies.

We're hearing that empowering girls is very important, but how do we continue to have boys be the focus as well? I see that's a focus with you. My mindset is that we can't solve the problem of violence against women and girls without addressing the violence against men and boys, because I think it's cyclical.

Could you comment on that, please?

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

Sure. I'm not an expert on many things, but I'm an expert on myself. I am a survivor of sexual violence by men, as a little boy. I'm also a survivor, in the 1960s, of very physically harsh punishment in my home.

I was able to find a way through others to heal, by being in the service of others. I'm very proud to say that as an adult, I have never laid hands on a woman in anger. I've never touched a woman in anger, or hurt a woman or a child. It is possible to grow up in a toxic environment and change, and to be part of the change rather than the problem. It is possible, and it's happening. We're doing it.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Excellent. Thank you.

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

I also want to make some space, because we haven't heard from Jodi—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Yes.

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

I'm cognizant of the fact that I am a male and I would like to put her forth ahead of me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Jodi, you have 30 seconds, if you want to go ahead.

[Jodi Heidinger]

Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to share from our experience.

We are a family resource network. I believe we are engaging parents at a very early stage in their parenting to encourage that early attentive caregiving and emotional attachment piece. Dads need to be just as much a part of the nurturing that happens in the home so that they have the capacity to model those behaviours early on for their children.

We know from that core brain story, you can't undue the impacts of trauma. One thing you can do is to create opportunity for resilience by attaching those young little minds to as many healthy adults as possible who are not in a parenting role, outside of the home. Whether that's extended family, friends, community groups, support groups through school, or early education, from our experience, it's making sure that dads are a part of that plan moving forward, and giving them opportunities to step up and play that nurturing role in the lives of the little ones.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Awesome. Thank you so much.

I'm now going to move it over to Sonia for three minutes.

Sonia, you have the floor.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for sharing their powerful testimony, and thank you for the work you are doing.

Mr. Bourbonniere, when you are teaching that men should be respectful, do you think about what age it needs to be started?

[Mitch Bourbonniere]

It needs to start as young as possible, right from infancy, toddlerhood and into the early years of school.

I'll give you a really quick example.

Part of what we do in Winnipeg is that we help people in poverty. We help people move. We help people get furniture. We try to help out with the physical needs of young families.

We might have a crew of men and boys moving furniture out of a house. There are a lot of us outside, maybe on the sidewalk, and we'll see a woman walking down the sidewalk towards us. I've been able to teach the men and boys who work with us very nuanced things, like we're all going to step off and away from the sidewalk so that this woman doesn't have to pass through this group of men.

It's little things like that. It's being aware of nuance and subtleties. That's what we're teaching our boys and young men. That's just an example.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is for Ms. Dolan or Ms. Heidinger, if you want to answer that, too. Why do you think racialized women or victims are often unwilling to access the support system?

[Jodi Heidinger]

In my experience, the big challenge with some of the victims that we've supported is fear when it comes to accessing formal supports. It's fear of retaliation, fear of their partners getting in trouble and being removed from their homes, especially if they're a primary breadwinner, and children being removed from the home. The majority of people who are accessing supports do so through informal avenues, like Lisa in her salon.

I think we have to understand that people don't always want their partners to get into trouble. They don't always want to leave their abusive partner, but they need to know safe options if they're to remain in the home. It's how can we work with them from that point until we can get them to a place where there's a safer option or safer alternative for them to leave.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Ms. Dolan talked about the fragile safety for women. How can we secure that safety for them?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Can you give a really short answer?

[Jodi Heidinger]

Yes.

I mentioned some of the biggest barriers that I'm seeing, particularly sustainable housing. I'm not saying there isn't a place for emergency housing, I think it is a great tool to have when there's a physical safety need, but healing doesn't happen in 21 days at a shelter. We need to give people the opportunity to have access to that second stage where they can really focus on that healing and get involved in programming that really interrupts that whole cycle of abuse to begin with.