Status of Women Committee on March 29th, 2022

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ultimately, the consequences for the children that were thought to be indirect are, in fact, direct consequences. It is really the entire family environment that is toxic.

You have opened the door to the subject of legislation. I would like to hear your thoughts on the need to criminalize coercive control.

You can even answer by drawing on what is being done elsewhere. I know you are interested in what is being done outside Canada and the results of criminalization in the countries that have enacted that legislation.

[Prof. Simon Lapierre]

At this point, when we try to make rules or criminalize certain incidents that occur in spousal violence situations, the children are relatively invisible. Getting a better understanding of spousal violence and criminalizing coercive control would make it possible to protect women better, but also to see children more clearly as co-victims of this violence, and implement measures that will protect them better.

For example, Scotland recently made coercive control a crime, and the courts there must take the presence of children into consideration from the outset. In a coercive control situation, it is immediately recognized as an aggravating factor.

I think we could even go further and recognize children as victims or co-victims of that violence. It is really important not to forget them. Children must not be some kind of invisible victims in this whole system. They have to be recognized as victims who are entitled to protection, just as their mother is.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Apart from Scotland, is there another model elsewhere that we could draw from in our work? Going to see what is happening elsewhere is also included in the objective of our study.

[Prof. Simon Lapierre]

In my opinion, the Scottish model, first, and then England and Wales, second, are the two models that show the most potential when it comes to coercive control. Scotland has gone a bit further when it comes to children, so its model shows a bit more potential in terms of the victimization of children in this context.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Excellent.

I am going to move on to another aspect of the subject, that we could talk more about in my second round. In your work and your writing, you mention the importance of coercive control even after separation, that is, when the aggressor continues to exercise control over the woman after they separate.

Could you tell us more about that? If you don't have enough time, we can come back to it later.

[Prof. Simon Lapierre]

When we look at coercive control as a behavioural pattern in which various violent and non-violent strategies are used to deprive the victim of her freedom, the research increasingly shows us that when a man adopts this pattern of behaviour when he is in a couple relationship with a woman, it is generally not going to stop when they separate. This behavioural pattern will sometimes change or be expressed differently, but it will generally continue during the separation process and after the separation. Not only will it not stop when they separate, but we are well aware that the period surrounding the separation and the period following the separation present particular problems. In fact, that is the period when women and children are at highest risk of being victims of serious violence or even of being killed by a spouse whose behaviour is violent and controlling. Spousal violence absolutely has to be understood in this context.

Second, policy has to be based on this. As I said earlier, there are inconsistencies among the systems. For example, a man may be convicted in criminal court of assault or forcible confinement, but after the separation, when the woman has to deal with custody or access issues, or with a report to youth protection, the situation will be perceived at the outset as a severe separation-related dispute. The people involved, the lawyers and judges, will say that given that the parents are separated, we should no longer be talking about spousal violence.

We really have to understand spousal violence in a longitudinal context and understand that it continues after separation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We're now going to pass it over to Leah Gazan.

Leah, you have six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much to all of the witnesses for presenting today.

My first questions are for Madam MacGregor.

I want to start by thanking you for your story. It's hard to share stories and, as you know, stories are powerful.

I also want to thank you for your solidarity with indigenous women, particularly around murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. I share your urgency.

I share your urgency and frustration. I share your urgency because we have known about this for a long time. We had a national inquiry in 2015 and we're still waiting on real action.

I wanted to ask you how this approach to incremental justice continues to cost lives. For example, in my riding and in many ridings across the country we have seen rates of violence go up 400% in some areas, and we still don't see action. People continue to go missing and to be murdered.

You shared your own stories. I want you to share about the dangers of incremental justice for women and 2SLGBTQQIA and about constantly having to be thankful for crumbs when our lives are on the line.

Thank you.

[Nneka MacGregor]

I'm so glad you raised this and that my anger and my frustration are coming through even though I'm not with you in person. My anger and my frustration, as I said, are borne out of my lived experience. On Mother's Day 2003, I thought I was going to die. I thought I was going to die in front of my three children. I talk about the negotiations, the promises I was making to the goddesses that if my life were saved, I would do everything I could to make it different. I have two daughters and a son, and I don't want the future they live to be a reflection of our past. The whole nonsense, the whole notion that we can make these changes piece by piece, is what is costing lives, and it is as dangerous as the violence of these violent men. The system is so lackadaisical and so complacent and it is playing with the lives of other people. The reality is that as lawmakers, police officers and individuals are sitting by and thinking that it won't impact them, we know that this violence will hit anybody, everybody. No woman is safe.

We have to understand Dr. Kimberlé Crenshaw's intersectionality that whilst no woman is safe, some women are less safe than others. Black women, indigenous women, racialized women, trans women—these communities are suffering and are dying at a high rate whilst other people look on. When the murders happen, I am tired of the “What should we have done? What could we have done?“ There is so much that could be done. There is so much.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm sorry. We have limited time and I want to hone in on a point you are making. When you do choose to leave, there is nowhere to go. It's so hard to leave. How does that impact and cost lives? You've share a very powerful story. It's really hit me. How does that cost lives when it takes everything in your spirit to leave and there's nowhere to go?

[Nneka MacGregor]

That's what I mean when I say that the systems we have in place are woefully inadequate, because we tell women to leave, but where are they going to go in the dead of night with young children in tow? Housing is not available. Affordable housing is not available. Domestic violence pushes women into poverty. Domestic violence is a health risk. We cannot think about tinkering. We cannot think about doing things piecemeal. We cannot think about putting a bandaid over a cancerous sore. It won't work. We need to be bold. We need to be courageous, and we need to remove ourselves from these current systems that were not created for us, or by us. They were created by men.

I talk about white supremacy. It was created to benefit white men and, by extension, white women. Black women and indigenous women—we are on the margins. We are the ones who are dying at unacceptable rates. If people are not outraged, they're not paying attention. If people are not ready to do something differently they will suffer the consequences because this violence will hit home. It will touch them. The time for tinkering is over. We need to be courageous and we need to do things differently.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I have only a couple of seconds left.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Literally you're at zero.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I could go on for hours.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for your powerful testimony.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You'll get a couple of seconds coming up. We're going to start with our second round. We'll be reducing some time.

Shelby and Emmanuella, you have four minutes.

Andréanne and Leah, you have two minutes.

We're going to start our first four minutes with Shelby.

Shelby, go ahead, please.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

My first question is for Nneka MacGregor, executive director.

[Nneka MacGregor]

That's me.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

No, I mean Ms. Mashooda.

First of all maybe I'll just backtrack a little bit. All of the presentations today were quite disturbing, real and raw, and I'm so grateful that you shared the story of the young woman. I was raised a little bit differently and haven't been exposed to a lot of this. This is a huge eye-opener for me and all the more reason that we can't sit back. With regard to the comment earlier from another witness about tinkering, we need to stop just being okay with how it is, and we need to move forward.

My first question is with regard to shelters. How many people are not able to access shelters? Do you have an equal number of shelters for men as for women?

[Mashooda-Lubna Syed]

Can you hear me?

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I sure can.

[Mashooda-Lubna Syed]

I live in Ottawa, and I think there is an equal amount. There are lots of shelters available. The problem is that they're all full, even our shelters. I'll give you an example. In the Ottawa one, we house 20 women and children. We always have a wait list. We've been full since we opened about a year and a half ago.

We need more places and maybe we need more funding. Like somebody was saying earlier, if the woman decides she's going to leave now, where does she go? She has no place to go. All of the shelters are full.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Do we have survivors who are brave enough to speak potentially to people who are seeking...?

[Mashooda-Lubna Syed]

Yes.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

And for younger people, how do they feel comfortable or how do they know that it's time to leave when there's so much fear there? That's the question.

[Mashooda-Lubna Syed]

Exactly.

A lot of the young girls we get they face a different type of abuse. They say they not only face domestic violence, but a lot of them face financial abuse as well. They're being forced to work and provide for their family, and that's the reason they chose to leave.

What we started doing is working with clients remotely because there are so many people who need help and all the shelters are full. What we do is this. The city will place the client in a hotel or motel and then we can provide them with all of the same services remotely.