Evidence of meeting #122 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Thank you very much, Michelle.
Lisa, you have five minutes.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Thank you.
I'll just continue in that same vein.
There are other jurisdictions that have already legislated against parental alienation, so there is wording we can learn from. Do any of you know about these other jurisdictions, these other countries, that have banned it, and whether it's working there?
As an Individual
There are numerous states that have banned it: Colorado, Tennessee, New Hampshire. Obviously, our legal system is slightly different, but the framework of the wording is available in Piqui's Law and Kayden's Law, and it can be used at least as a starting block for us here in Canada to create the legislation.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Have you heard of any negative consequences due to this being banned in family courts?
As an Individual
I have not. If anything, there are benefits, because what states are most commonly doing, part and parcel with banning alienation—it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg phenomenon—is banning the reunification therapy in camps. By doing so, if you get rid of the remedies, what happens is the parental alienation allegations dissipate because then the abuser cannot inflict this upon the children.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Would that be an acceptable remedy for you, to ban reunification therapy, if it's a faster way for legislators to approach this problem? If we ban any therapy that a child is forced to take or any therapy where participants in the court system are forced to take therapy from a particular person or a particular company, would that solve the problem?
As an Individual
Ideally, both things would happen, but I think this would have the most impact, especially if it could be done quickly. As you can imagine, the three witnesses here today really feel a sense of urgency on this issue. Absolutely, the first step should be to ban reunification therapy in all of its forms, because even since I have been in the system, it has mutated, like a bad virus. It keeps changing names. Our court order in the end said “family therapy”. It was veiled reunification therapy. So we have to be very careful.
At the end of the day, if we continue to respect the children's consent to treatment—which, again, is overridden, as the Canada Health Act is dispensed with—then children would have a right to decline this. As of right now, they don't. If they don't participate, the mother is held in contempt of court.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Thank you.
Family court judges, especially now, are supposed to take family violence into consideration when they're making custody orders or when they're deciding things. Is that not happening because judges don't understand, or is it because coercive control doesn't cause bruises, as we've heard from other colleagues here today? Does anybody have thoughts on that?
As an Individual
Sorry, I don't want to dominate, so I'll let someone else speak, although I do have a comment. I agree with you 100%.
If there are not medical records or reports from a physician or a police report where there are bruises, they don't acknowledge it. It happened in my case, with my own reports and the reports of my children.
Executive Director, Ottawa Victim Services
I would just echo that there's such a bias around physical incidents and physical violence. So, yes, coercive behaviours and that sort of abuse are not understood widely, whether in the criminal system or the family system. There's a lot of education to do of the actors and the gatekeepers in these systems.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Sticking with you, Heidi, I'll ask you this. You just mentioned that recently your organization has seen an increased demand for services and it's been a strain. What do you think is causing that? Are there more men abusing women? Is it that there are more women who are willing to come forward? Is it that more services are available or more women are aware that their situation is not acceptable, and then they look for help? I'm wondering if you could just comment on what you think the factors are.
Executive Director, Ottawa Victim Services
I think there has been some public education that happened during the pandemic, which was good. There was recognition that some people aren't safe at home, and there was more public outreach around where to get help. I think that's good, but there are still a lot of economic consequences from the pandemic, which are causing a lot of stress on families. Not that this is ever an excuse for violence, but we certainly know there are increased mental health concerns, widespread stress around economics, and just, I think, pressure. A lot of families are under pressure, and it can often escalate to violence.
We have definitely seen an increased demand for services. It's actually hard to respond to the numbers the Ottawa police are seeing. We share files with them. We have shared clients, and we try to support as many as we can. There are definitely lingering impacts from the pandemic.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Thank you very much.
Next, we have Michelle.
Michelle, you have five minutes.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'm going to go to Witness 3, because this is a mom who, as we've heard already, hasn't seen her child for over 1,000 days, with no contact. You mentioned that you were responsible for self-representation because you didn't have the money to get a lawyer. I'd like to dig into this a little further, if I can. What options were you given? How long was this trial, and how did it play out?
As an Individual
Originally, I did have a lawyer. It was through Legal Aid. She got off my case just prior to a settlement conference. At that point, the judge stated, “We're going to trial. I don't care if you have a lawyer or not”, so I had about a month and a half to try to find another lawyer. No one would take me on, including Legal Aid, even if I had the financial means, just because there was absolutely no time. I put in a motion and asked two different judges if they could postpone my trial to a point where I could get a lawyer to represent me. Both of them refused and said they were going on with or without me.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Thank you for that.
Witness 2, you shared your story today. You are a young woman, 18 years old. How old were you when this first happened with your parents' divorce?
As an Individual
My parents separated when I was 14, and it took less than a week for me to be sent to my first reunification therapy session.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Wow.
Did you know your parents were separated?
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Okay, that's not even enough time to process your parents' separation.
Were you consulted?
As an Individual
To be honest, because my dad was rarely around, it felt like they were separated for a long time. Still, without a doubt, there was definitely not enough time to process what exactly was happening, so I went into those reunification therapy sessions with a skewed idea of what was actually happening.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Wow. Thanks for that context. At 14 years old, you were probably in grade 9 at this point, with a lot of things happening in your own life.
Were you consulted? Were you ever brought into a room or interviewed by forensic interviewers? How was it assessed, and how were you consulted by therapists during this process?
As an Individual
I was simply brought into a room and asked particular questions about how I was finding my relationship with my dad. How were the relationships with both of my parents? What memories did I have of the two of them together or separately? Also, I was asked quite frequently what my mom's reactions to abusive instances were, which I realized later was them getting information about what to use against my mother in court for retaliation.
Conservative
Michelle Ferreri Conservative Peterborough—Kawartha, ON
Just for clarification, did that happen under the reunification therapy when you were being asked those questions? Is that when that happened? Did it happen before, through the court system, or did it happen strictly under the reunification therapy?