Evidence of meeting #123 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was father.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
If you could answer that in about 10 seconds, that would be great. Thank you.
As an Individual
Sure.
Now it has been since August 2023 that I have not seen my brother. Our order says that I am allowed to see him, but it has to be either at my father's residence or at a place agreed upon by my father. I have not engaged in that yet, and I have not seen him since last August.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Thank you, Michelle, and all the witnesses.
Emmanuella, you have six minutes.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to all of our witnesses for the courage you have and for bringing forward your stories.
Witness 2, I have just a point of clarification. How old is your brother?
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
He's younger than you. Okay.
I know, Witness 1, you spoke a little bit about the fact that there are people benefiting from this economically and that it's often the same therapists who people are being sent to and it's often the same judges who are making these decisions.
Can you speak a little bit more to that and explain whether you know of other people who have had a similar experience? What makes you say this?
As an Individual
Yes, for sure.
A review of, actually, the case law.... There is a website called CanLII that has a public website for case law. If you review the case law with regard to parental alienation, reunification therapy in camps, you will find consistency in the names of the therapists who have been ordered. What is really ironic is that, when I'm connecting with other parents like me from all over Ontario, we actually have the same clinicians in our cases. I'm in wherever I am, and then for somebody three hours away, it's still the same person being utilized for the provision of this care of reunification therapy.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Do you think that might be because there are not that many experts in this field or people in the field, or do you think it really is done for other reasons?
As an Individual
I think it's done for other reasons, and they're negative ones.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Okay. Thank you.
You said both parents get to put forward names of people they would like to use and that, for the preferred parent, his or her choices are never the ones who are used. However, then you're saying the same clinicians are the ones who are often getting chosen. Do you think there's a link there? Do you think the non-preferred parent is the one who is going into case law and seeing which ones are successful at this, and perhaps that might be the reason?
As an Individual
It gets very hard to explain. There is a subset of specific lawyers where their whole entire primary income and practice is based on the use of parental alienation. There's about a handful of lawyers in Ontario who use PA regularly and they use the same therapists. They've been using the same therapists for, I don't know, over 10 years. I also don't think there are therapists who have proven any sort of success with regard to their practice. There's no research or longitudinal studies that support this having been successful.
The challenge is also that there is case law that supports using these therapists, using these practices, so it gains credibility and it gains strength in family court. However, there is not case law that supports or demonstrates the actual reality and the devastation that occurs because of such orders.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Thomson, I have a question for you. Thank you very much for what you've shared with us today. It was a different perspective, and one we hadn't heard yet.
I'm wondering what specific things you think we should be recommending to ensure that animal abuse—threats to animals or anything like that—in a situation where there is intimate partner violence can be used either by the courts or in a police report, or whatever it might be.
Manager, Justice and Legislative Affairs, Humane Canada
Thank you for the question.
First of all, it's acknowledging that animal abuse is part of that whole spectrum of intimate partner violence. That would be the first step. The next step would be writing it in the case reports and police reports, checking on the animal and the police asking if there's any animal abuse when they are doing a domestic call-out.
If it goes to the courts, it's ensuring that those animal cruelty charges are not dropped in favour of a plea deal, because that often happens, unfortunately, especially if there are other charges on the table.
Unfortunately, that requires a lot of training on how to understand where the many facets of animal abuse fit into that intimate partner and family violence spectrum.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
If we were to recommend something on training, whether it's training judges or whomever, we should include animal abuse within that.
Manager, Justice and Legislative Affairs, Humane Canada
Yes...as a form of coercive control and in the context of intimate partner and family violence.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
I see I have less than 30 seconds, so I won't bother asking another question.
I want to thank all of you once again for being here. Hopefully, we can all make a difference together through your testimony.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Thank you, Emmanuella.
Next we have Andréanne.
You have six minutes.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I would like to thank the witnesses for providing us with their testimony to help the committee with this important study on coercive behaviour despite what it may cause them to relive.
It is always striking to see the extent to which, in 2024, this violence against women is so widespread, particularly in a domestic context, and it must still be denounced. As a woman, it is hard to accept and imagine.
Ms. Dhillon, in your opening remarks, you talked about the importance of training. You explained that your attacker was able to leave the country.
I am going to relate it to recent events here in Parliament and in Quebec, where the “Rebâtir la confiance” report was first tabled. There is now a pilot project on electronic bracelets.
How helpful to you could the ability to recognize coercive behaviour have been, coupled with means such as the electronic bracelet?
Author and Speaker, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
For years, in every talk and every meeting with MPs, I've always brought up the need for ankle bracelets, but I have never seen anything go ahead. It is very important for us to have that for the safety of the victim and the children—and even for him. He can say, “I wasn't there,” because he was monitored.
Yes, I totally agree, and I applaud you in Quebec for having that.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you, Ms. Dhillon.
I keep coming back to you. In your testimony, you spoke very bravely about the physical assaults you experienced. You said that, from the first meetings you had with your abuser, you had sensed something. Could it be that before being hit, you were submitted to coercive behaviour that was insidious, manipulative or violent in a different way? Can you say that, in addition to physical violence, there have also been other forms of violence, including coercive behaviour?
Author and Speaker, As an Individual
Yes, there was.
As I said, I was 18 years old and did not know anything about relationships. On day one, after we got married, within hours I was dropped off at the emergency room because he had brutally raped me and sodomized me.
He was much older than me and I believe he chose me so that he could groom me because I was innocent. I had no idea what to expect. I went through a whole range of different abuses—physical, sexual, financial, emotional, mental and all sorts of things. Then there was cultural.
I hope that answers your question.
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Yes, thank you, Ms. Dhillon.
In closing, I am going to talk about an aspect that has not been discussed as much by the committee.
I thought of this study a long time ago. Finally, Bill C‑332 has made its way through the legislative process, and it is currently being studied in the Senate. Very little has been said about it here, but many articles on this bill were published last week in Quebec. The bill seeks to criminalize coercive conduct.
Have you had a chance to read the bill briefly, or have you heard about it? If so, do you have any recommendations for improving it? I see our study mainly as complementary work. There is a bill, but could we do something else while we wait for the bill to be passed and for coercive behaviour to be criminalized?
Author and Speaker, As an Individual
Unfortunately, I am not aware of the bill. I apologize
However, I do want to really stress that intimate partner violence is taken lightly in the courts. Because it's “domestic”, I believe it is still very low on the spectrum for being criminally charged and criminally held.
I believe that having ankle bracelets, mandatory anger management, mandatory whatever for drinking problems and all of this.... Because it is the woman who is always fleeing, I think it's about time that the men—the abusers—have to leave the house instead of the victims.
Conservative
NDP
Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you.
I just want to thank all the witnesses, appreciating this is very difficult testimony for all of you to share.
I want to start off with Ms. Thomson.
Congratulations. I first want to mention about getting Bill C-332 amended to include animal abuse.
This is a big issue. It's true that a lot of people who have pets consider them to be like family members. They don't want to leave them because they're their main form of support, especially in abusive situations. They can talk to their pet and they won't say anything. It's their only form of support.
Do you agree that it's necessary for shelters, regarding the pets of people fleeing violence, to allow the pets into shelters?