Evidence of meeting #123 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was father.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON
You mentioned culture. Is this something in your culture that is practised on a regular basis?
Author and Speaker, As an Individual
It is becoming less and less. However, when I got married, the only way to get married was through an arrangement.
Conservative
Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON
You mentioned in your testimony that no one helped you, and you mentioned your family. Why didn't they believe you? Why did they not stand up for you?
Author and Speaker, As an Individual
I believe, once again, it was their pride, their shame. In fact, I speak regularly about something my father said that I hope no father ever says to his child. After my abuser came out of his three days in jail after his arrest, my father said to me, “Baby girl, please go back. Stay with him. I'll come and get you one day.” I said, “When, Dad?” He said, “I'll come for your body.”
To him, that was more honourable than having a daughter who was a free woman, one whom he may consider or the community may consider a loose woman.
Conservative
Author and Speaker, As an Individual
Can I just complete it with a few lines?
Author and Speaker, As an Individual
I answered my dad. I said, “No, Dad. He didn't kill me. You did.”
Conservative
Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON
Good for you. Excellent.
I want to ask you something. Was your mother subject to the same treatment that you were subject to?
Conservative
Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON
You mentioned pride earlier. Was it something in the family? Was it pride because of a financial gain to the family?
I don't understand. Being a parent, I would do anything to protect my children. To me, it sounds like your father was an abuser.
Author and Speaker, As an Individual
To me, my father was a man who lived for others. In the temple, in the public eye, he wanted to show that everything was perfect for him.
He also said, in that same context, “If you leave him, who will marry your sister? What if your married sisters are sent back home because of you?” I had to carry the burden of my five sisters on my shoulders to protect them, while all along he would break my bones and abuse and torture me.
Conservative
Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON
What about your children? What are the mental aspects that this created for them?
Author and Speaker, As an Individual
My children have gone through hell. In fact, I didn't see my children for almost four years, the older two, and then I kidnapped the younger two and brought them through the border into Canada. I don't know if I shouldn't be mentioning any of that at a government conference.
My youngest son is with the RCMP. There are triggers. Each child of mine suffers from PTSD, as do I.
Conservative
Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON
Thank you for that.
My time is limited, and I want to go to Kerri next.
I want to tell you my experience. I rescued a dog from Dog Tales. This dog was a feeder dog. I'm not sure if the audience knows what a feeder dog is. A feeder dog is a dog that is used to amplify dog fights.
This dog was beaten and slashed. Their ribs were broken, but I have to tell you something: I chose to adopt this dog because I felt that this dog could teach me. In terms of what you said about allowing pets, pets are crucial to survivors of war. I know they're used to help dying patients. The Salvation Army and the Red Cross use them.
I commend you for that. I agree with the thought that we should allow them into our shelters, because it helps heal the individual. This dog went through so much, yet they were kind, loving and caring.
Kerri, thank you for bringing that to our attention.
Conservative
October 7th, 2024 / 11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I'll echo my colleagues and thank all the witnesses for their hard to hear but very valuable testimony today. I met Witness 1 and Witness 2 previously, and obviously I was very moved by their testimony and thought the whole committee should hear it.
Witness 1, you spoke about this already quite a bit today, but I'd like to just nail it down. You called it an “alienation industry”. I'm wondering if you would flesh that out a bit more for us.
As an Individual
Sure. Thank you for the question.
When I'm referring to an “alienation industry”, I am referring to a defined set of lawyers, social workers and psychologists who primarily benefit from the use of the parental alienation narrative in family courts.
Does that help clarify?
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Yes. Beyond that, you've mentioned that only a few players just keep getting used by the system over and over again and getting these same verdicts to the point where it's almost creating jurisprudence in this country. Something that may not have been an accepted term is becoming accepted just because it's being used over and over again. Is that what I understood from you?
As an Individual
Yes, I agree with that completely. What it's also doing is reinforcing their credibility within the jurisprudence and the case law that lawyers can bring forth—that in this case, this case and this case this individual was utilized to provide therapy. Then they get reordered yet again. However, I think I said earlier that there is no follow-up case law as to whether that reunification therapy was successful or what the actual outcomes and potentially traumatic impacts were to the children, such as Witness 2.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
As far as you know, what kind of research is there to show that parental alienation is even a real thing?
As an Individual
There is a lot of literature to support that it's not, that it is a pseudo-science. However, the people who promote parental alienation, though, will counter with different sources that they believe do support it. I am happy to connect the committee with professors, doctors, in Canada and the U.S., who would be able to address that more wholeheartedly than me.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Because we only have limited time, if you're able to maybe reach out to some of those experts and ask them to submit a brief directly to the committee, that would be really helpful. We don't even need them to testify, but we can use their evidence when we're coming up with the final study.
I think I heard you say that there's increasing push-back against this practice in U.S. family courts to the extent that some of those so-called experts are coming and establishing their practices in Canada. Is that what I understood?
As an Individual
Yes, that is correct. The use of these remedies has been banned in six U.S. states. A practitioner in California has made it publicly known on social media that she has relocated to British Columbia to provide service.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
What can we learn from the states that have already put this in their legislation?
