Status of Women Committee on Oct. 7th, 2024

[Witness 1]

I think that it's hard to say. A lot of the legislation is new, but I think a meaningful point for the committee today would be that eliminating the remedies associated with PA will decrease the use of PA in court. However, if coercive control is criminalized and PA is not banned—this is a little bit confusing to explain—instead of living through the remedies, we will have a criminal record and potentially face jail time.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Let me just see if I'm understanding what you're saying. You believe that if we criminalize coercive control it will be used against the victim rather than the aggressor, unless there's also a stipulation about parental alienation.

[Witness 1]

Yes, exactly. I'm also saying that, if the remedies are banned and parental alienation is not prohibited, instead of being a victim of the current remedies, I would potentially have been in jail and have a criminal record.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

By banning the remedies, we've been talking about banning reunification therapy or banning the ability of a judge to force a particular therapist or therapy upon a child or a complainant. Is that what you mean by banning the remedies?

[Witness 1]

Yes, I'm sorry. I misunderstood the question. Thank you; I agree.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I don't know if I worded the question well, so it's not your fault.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you very much, Lisa.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I'm out of time.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Andréanne, you have two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

In my second round of questions, I'm going to turn to Ms. Thomson.

Before this meeting, I attended a meeting where I had the opportunity to discuss the important role that pets play in the lives of families. When an incident or tragedy occurs, we also wonder what we should do with the animals. So that was one of the topics that was discussed.

My colleague Ms. Gazan talked about the fact that a small percentage of shelters for battered women accept animals. This is problematic, since animals are sometimes part of the victim's path to healing. In addition, if we criminalize coercive behaviour, more situations can be reported and therefore more women will be eligible to get help from an organization in order to heal. We also know that animals can often serve as a form of therapy. I once had the opportunity to speak with a woman who used, among other things, equine-assisted therapy, with horses, to help women who were victims of violence get better. I would therefore like to explore potential solutions with you.

Do you have any concrete solutions to address the need for women and families to take their pets with them after they denounce an abuser, for example? Is it a matter of making more room in shelters, in spite of the issues it may cause?

[Kerri Thomson]

Basically, what we would like to see is anything that keeps the women and children—the families who love the animal—together, so that it reduces that trauma of separating the animal from them, which we understand is not necessarily possible at all times. The issue is that the shelters also don't have enough space for the women and children who need their services, let alone bringing animals with them.

Keeping animals, victims and survivors together is the most important thing for us. There's not an easy solution, because it requires so many different things. We need more affordable housing. We need more shelters that accept animals regardless of allergies, so there has to be space for people with allergies to animals. It's not an easy solution and it's not going to be cheap, but it is something that needs to be recognized.

You also mentioned other tragedies like emergency situations. People don't necessarily think about the pets and the pets being left behind, but in hurricane Helene just last weekend, a lot of people would not leave.

I hope that answers your question and that I didn't go off on a tangent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you, Ms. Thomson.

Leah, you have two and a half minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thanks.

I want to thank you for this. People often don't think about these things in terms of giving people options to leave.

I have a question. A lot of animals are given status as emotional support animals, and it's very common. For a person fleeing violence, should they end up at a shelter, do you think there should be a way to license that animal to become an emotional support animal for the victim?

[Kerri Thomson]

That would be one idea to do that. The problem with the emotional support animal is that there are no licensing standards for it. It's only for service animals, so there would have to be a whole other standard, regulations and that sort of thing. I wouldn't say no to that, because that's technically what their role is with any victims of violence—they're supporting.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I ask that because very often, when somebody is fleeing violence, it's a very vulnerable time. To have that animal with them, comforting them all the time, do you think it would make the process a bit easier for that individual?

[Kerri Thomson]

Yes, absolutely.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

I have limited time, but I just wanted to thank you, Ms. Dhillon, for your testimony.

You spoke a little about your family. One of the things we have spoken about a lot in FEWO is the importance of having places for women that serve diverse communities and specialize in different areas. For example, in my riding, there was a movement to open a shelter for women of the Muslim faith, for example.

Do you think that would have helped, in your situation, to go to a place where people understood maybe some of the cultural norms that you came from and that you spoke about, including arranged marriages? Would that have made it easier for you so that you didn't have to explain so much?

[Kamal Dhillon]

That's a really good suggestion. In fact, probably just 10 years ago, PICS, a progressive intercultural network in Surrey, opened a shelter for South Asian women, which helps a lot because, yes, they understand the culture. They understand the language, and they understand the whole dynamic surrounding arranged marriages, especially when language is a barrier. I think that really is very supportive to the victim.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Excellent.

Dominique, you have five minutes.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, witnesses, for being here. It certainly takes courage to be with us today. Sincerely, we feel very sad hearing your stories because of the incredible violence you went through. I am thinking of Witness 2, who is 17 years old. This is unacceptable. She also has a brother who is even younger than her and who is therefore even more vulnerable.

Ms. Dhillon, according to our research about you, and as you pointed out in your opening remarks, you do a lot of education, and that is the mission you have set for yourself today.

Who is this education and awareness-raising aimed at? What messages are you conveying? What are you teaching them?

Obviously, there were people whose awareness was not raised, particularly the court.

You are a speaker and you say that you do education, so I would like you to tell me who your target audiences are, what your messages for them are and what results you achieve.

[Kamal Dhillon]

Thank you for the question.

I speak to a broad range of agencies. I'll start with the police.

I regularly speak at the Justice Institute of British Columbia for the training of new police recruits in municipal policing. First of all, I tell them how to approach a victim and how to talk to a victim. I tell them about the body language. I tell them not to stand in front of them and to give them space. I show them my injuries. I show them pictures through slides.

This is a question that so many of us victims have been asked: “If it was that bad, why didn't you just leave?” My approach to that question is “Do you believe it wasn't that bad?” The violence, no matter if it's hidden, if there are no signs, such as sexual, such as emotional or threats and all of that, is still abuse, and it still causes a lot of harm. In every situation, take us seriously. Don't give up on us.

I also speak to different agencies and to a lot of first nation communities and schools.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Ms. Dhillon, I am not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, let alone a physician. However, we know of narcissistic manipulators. We have seen some. We can recognize that, and I do not understand why people in law enforcement do not recognize them.

Be that as it may, one cannot blame a woman for having to deal with a narcissistic manipulator who also engages in coercive behaviour. It is very difficult to get out of a situation like that.

Thank you for the message you are conveying. It is extremely important. I urge you to continue. Go and train these people who deal with victims in their offices and in their police stations. It is very important.

I do not have much time left, just enough to ask one last question.

As a victim, what services did you need and should have been provided to you?

Did you receive any services? Were they sufficient?

If not, what services would you have liked to benefit from? What did you need?

[Kamal Dhillon]

Thank you.

I'm no psychiatrist, either. However, I did not receive any sort of counselling or support, and neither did my children at the time. I stress, even to this day, that I wish I could go to speak to a counsellor, a therapist, and just for whatever is still in there, the pain that I carry, I wish that I could unburden it now.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Dhillon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you, Dominique.

Sonia, you have five minutes.