Status of Women Committee on Nov. 6th, 2024

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

The reason I asked is that when the Lethbridge YWCA appeared at the status of women committee in 2018, after the meeting, I actually asked them about that. They said exactly what you did about firearms being used as threats, either against them or the children or companion animals, and so the women were hesitant to leave. They told a horrific story about some kids who reacted to a “bang” thinking that it was a firearm going off.

Anyway, thank you, and thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

That's excellent.

MP Larouche, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

For my last turn, I will start with you, Ms. St‑Pierre Gaudreault and Ms. Monastesse.

You touched on the alignment between what is being done in Quebec and what is called for in the national action plan to end gender-based violence. I imagine you were also talking about aligning the measures taken by the three levels of government and all stakeholders.

Very soon, I will be sitting down with the new person in charge of community services at the Granby police department, who will have to deal with cases involving crimes against women. What questions should I ask that person, with a view to aligning everything that is being done?

[Manon Monastesse]

Are you talking about alignment between the federal and provincial measures?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

There are also municipal police forces on the ground. We forget that the alignment has to include them as well, and not just the federal government and Quebec.

[Manon Monastesse]

Yes.

In Quebec, there is a guide for police practices and how to intervene in cases of domestic or family violence or sexual assault. There has to be alignment because, unfortunately, while there is a guide in place, not all police officers follow it. That is already a fundamental problem.

That said, we have the Association des directeurs de police du Québec and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. Police practices need to be harmonized at all levels. As you say, that applies to the municipal level, in addition to the provincial and federal levels. Police practices need to be aligned, especially since the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police has already created a guide on police intervention in this area.

That's what the whole alignment issue is about. We need to harmonize police practices as well as other ones.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ms. St‑Pierre Gaudreault, do you have anything to add? There are 30 seconds left.

[Julie St-Pierre Gaudreault]

My first instinct is to give you an example. We have colleagues at the Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale who provide training to police officers, particularly on ways to recognize coercive control and the different forms of violence, but also on the mechanisms in place to protect women. These approaches can be promoted, and the rest of Canada can learn from them so that training is offered everywhere.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Next I would like to welcome Leah Gazan.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I have a question for Madame Monastesse.

You said that the data collection that's done by Statistics Canada is not effective. I want to ask you what recommendations you have for changing it in a way that you feel would be more effective.

[Manon Monastesse]

The problem we see with the methodology used by Statistics Canada is that it is based on self-reporting. In other words, when Statistics Canada employees call people to answer a survey, they ask them if they are victims of violence, whether they are men or women. Things like coercive control are not taken into account in the criteria. We end up with matching data indicating that the number of victims of violence is the same among men and women, which is totally absurd.

Therefore, we need a methodology that takes into account the seriousness of the acts committed against women. Being a victim of verbal abuse is not the same as being a victim of coercive control, for example. However, Statistics Canada doesn't make a distinction as to the seriousness of the acts of violence that are perpetrated. If the woman says she is a victim of violence and the man says he is as well, the information is treated the same in both cases.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you.

My last question is for Jill Young.

You said that resources are at a breaking point. What that says to me is that there are still not enough resources to deal with the level of crisis. Many municipalities have labelled it an epidemic of violence. Can you expand on that? What do you need in terms of resources?

[Jill Young]

We need a very targeted, collaborative approach that includes sustainable funding.

Quite often, the analogy that I use—and it has been used by other community organizations within Lethbridge—has been that, quite often, we are trying to make the best decision for the clients we see, the victims and the survivors, with one hand tied behind our back, and that is because of the options that are available. We want to be able to provide to that individual a suitable home, mental health resources or physicians, and we don't have those options, so it continues.

Yes, funding is a huge part of it, but it is not the only piece. We need to be doing this collaboratively and be very aligned. What we see in this system is that the funding and how we collaborate really vary by community. That makes a difference for those survivors.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

In the third round we have two slots left for both a Conservative Party member and a Liberal Party member, generally for five minutes each. I want you to do four minutes each, just because we started at 4:36 and we're going to end at 6:36.

We start with Anna. You have the floor for four minutes.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you again to all the witnesses. I can't believe how wonderful and how brave you all are.

I'm going to ask my question to Madame Jeanson.

You told a story of a woman whose abuser violated his conditions 28 times. Based on your vast experience with many men who are not able to be rehabilitated, what is your thought on the catch-and-release policy, and how has it not assisted in preventing violence against women?

[Martine Jeanson]

The catch-and-release policy makes it possible for men to kill women. There's absolutely nothing protecting us.

In my case, 30 years ago, I called the police about my abusive partner at least 20 times. All the police reports about it are there. The police even asked me questions right in front of him.

When women are in the presence of their abuser, they're afraid to answer officers' questions because they know the police will arrest their abuser and then let him go. That can put a woman's life in even more danger. The man gets even madder at her because the police have intervened. Once he's released, he gets a hundred times crazier. That's why women no longer want to call the police. Just calling the police puts women's lives at even greater risk. I don't like saying that, but that's how it is. Quite frankly, it's the fact that the man is subsequently released that puts the lives of women at even greater risk.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to go back to Mrs. Singh.

I spoke to a few police officers who are very committed to protecting women, but what they keep telling me, especially in York Region, where recently a report came out that murders are up 67%—which scares me a lot—is that their hands are tied because they do the arrests, but then they can't keep them behind bars. Would you say to the police officers that...? How would you encourage them to continue to protect women when the law's not on their side?

[Sunder Singh]

We have experienced quite a few times that the police officers have said, “The file is closed because there's no evidence, and we are completely helpless. Our hands are tied.” When the case goes to the police and to the court, the police tell us not to intervene. We can provide emotional support to the women, but other than that, we cannot do anything. It becomes a legal case, and there's nothing we can do.

I understand that the police are feeling helpless as well. They can do only so much, but it is the law that is soft, that ties the hands of the police, and they cannot do anything. Laws need to change. They need to become stricter, and authority has to be given to the police so that they are able to handle domestic violence cases.

Training for the police officers, judges and child protection agencies should become mandatory. They need to understand the emotional conditions of the women when they are abused. They need to understand deeply what the women go through and the impact of taking the children or threatening to take the child away from the mother at the same time as she's being abused. They need to understand that.

The emotional condition of the woman may make it appear from the outside that she's mentally unstable, but she's not. A mother cannot tolerate seeing her child being taken away, especially when she's beaten up at home, so they need to be very sensitive to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

MP Hepfner, you have the floor for four minutes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for this testimony.

Unfortunately, Dr. Buffalo is no longer here, but I want to go back to something she said that really piqued my interest.

She mentioned having a lawyer, paid for by the state, in court for the victim. We know that we have court support services for victims, but we heard at this committee that they don't always offer the type of support that victims need. If we had a lawyer paid for by the state, who is there to argue for the victim and the safety of the victim, do we think that would make a big difference?

I will start with you, Ms. Young.

[Jill Young]

Actually, at YWCA we have an individual who helps our clients, our survivors and our victims navigate the legal system. It's something that is incredibly valuable, because it can be daunting and overwhelming. It can be very difficult to understand the system and what they're to expect.

It's not necessarily a legal.... They're not a lawyer, but they are there to support and advocate for them. Then they connect them with legal advisers, so it's very important.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I agree. I covered courts for many years and I knew many victims services workers. Their work is invaluable, but they're not heard by the court or the justice of the peace who's deciding bail. They're there to provide support, but they don't have a voice in the court.

If we had a lawyer who could intervene during a bail process with the justice of the peace and have an actual voice, to me that seems like a good solution.

What are your thoughts?

[Jill Young]

I think it would be a fantastic solution. It's definitely one of the barriers that we see day to day, because it's obviously significantly daunting.

Yes, it would be very valuable.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I have a question for the witnesses from Quebec.

What do you think about the idea of a government-paid lawyer whose job is to defend victims?

[Martine Jeanson]

That would be the best thing ever.

When a woman leaves a violent home, the man keeps everything, so he can afford a good lawyer. The woman has to go to a legal aid lawyer. They're not paid as much, so all they do is go to court. Legal aid lawyers don't fight for their clients like well-paid lawyers do.

If women had really good lawyers, they would get better advocacy, and there would be different outcomes. Women should have access to a good attorney. I don't know how the government could come up with funds for that, but I can tell you that legal aid lawyers are not the best advocates for women's issues at all.