Evidence of meeting #134 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rights.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Benjamin Roebuck  Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime
Lisa Harris  Non-Commissioned Officer, Criminal Investigation Division, Royal Newfoundland Constabulary
Erin Griver  Co-chair, Woman Abuse Working Group

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would also like to thank the three witnesses for being with us in the early evening to talk to us, unfortunately, about this violence and femicides, as we are in the middle of the days of activism against gender-based violence.

Can you hear me, Ms. Harris?

Sgt Lisa Harris

It's not translating, no.

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

I've stopped my timer, Madam Chair.

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

We'll just pause the time for a minute.

I will continue speaking in French to see if we have interpretation.

Is it okay now?

We're going to continue.

Andréanne, it's working again.

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

I was saying that we are in the middle of the days of activism against gender-based violence, which started on November 25 and will culminate on December 6 in Quebec.

We are really in a time of reflection. On Monday, at the beginning of these days, all kinds of potential solutions were presented to address this epidemic of femicides. We can talk about an epidemic, as recognized by a number of cities.

I'll start with you, Mr. Roebuck. You talked about something that's especially close to my heart right now, the Jordan decision. On May 30, my colleague Denis Trudel, the member for Longueil—St-Hubert, introduced a bill to ensure that perpetrators of crimes against women would not escape justice because of the Jordan decision or because of delays in proceedings.

Have you had a chance to look at that bill, or have you heard about it? If not, would you like to come back to the importance and links between the Jordan decision and the fact that too many criminals are getting off because of delays for various reasons? We'll come back to that.

6:10 p.m.

Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime

Dr. Benjamin Roebuck

Thank you for your question. I will answer in English.

I don't think the notwithstanding clause should be required to protect survivors from these dangers and from Jordan delays. I think we need to see more emphasis on the section 7 charter rights of survivors to life and security of the person. That hasn't been as developed as it needs to be.

If we're talking about femicide, those rights are critical and foundational. They should drive legal reform to line up with the rights that survivors have in Canada. I think that can challenge Jordan.

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Ms. Harris, have you heard about Bill C-392? Why is it important to pass a bill that addresses the use of the Jordan decision to get a stay of proceedings?

Sgt Lisa Harris

I've heard of it. I have not reviewed it in depth.

Certainly, from all investigative areas as a police officer, Jordan has had significant implications. I can think back to my time in the Internet child exploitation unit, investigating some of the most serious crimes toward our most vulnerable in society, and the delays that would be caused from laying a charge because of the fear of Jordan implications. It was kind of new at that time.

From a policing perspective, we recently in Newfoundland had a homicide investigation that was stayed due to Jordan delays. We had a guilty verdict today for a skating coach who committed sexual crimes against young skaters. There were concerns that there would be Jordan delays there.

Certainly, from a policing perspective, that is a very high concern for us.

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Many victims and survivors have spoken about it here, including Cait Alexander, who follows the work on Bill C-392 very closely. The fact that the administration of justice falls under the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces has been brought up, but I would like to discuss an issue that falls under federal jurisdiction, namely the appointment of certain federal judges.

Why do you think it's important for the federal government to set an example and not let the appointment of certain federal judges drag on, when we're talking about reducing court delays, improving the system and restoring victims' confidence?

Since you both talked about the Jordan decision and court delays, Mr. Roebuck and Ms. Harris, I'll give you the minute and a half I have left to answer that question.

6:15 p.m.

Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime

Dr. Benjamin Roebuck

As I think we heard earlier, no amount of resourcing for the justice system can turn off the flow if we're not investing in prevention.

Judges certainly need to be in place. I think there's been more recent progress to actually drive appointments. We still hear about judges who have no training in criminal matters who are listening to cases that involve complex power dynamics and gender imbalance. There needs to be more work on that structure.

Sgt Lisa Harris

I know that in Newfoundland in particular, we don't often see a delay, but then there's a lack of accountability measures for the judges who are appointed to the bench and still do not have an understanding of victims' rights or the nuances.

As a society, we're now much more aware of gender-based violence and trauma when it comes to a victim providing testimony. Take strangulation in particular. If you look at the research with regard to a progression in strangulation, after a repeated number of occurrences the cognitive ability of a person actually changes significantly. It declines. There's not a recognition from a judicial perspective when it comes to a person providing their testimony or the statements that they would provide to police.

We certainly see the lack of accountability measures for training for the justice participants, and not just police. Often the focus of education goes to training the frontline officers. Certainly that's important, but I think it's important for anybody who has a hand in the judicial system for training to be shared there as well.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

Thank you.

MP Gazan, you have the floor for six minutes.

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you so much.

My first question is for you, Ben.

You spoke about NAWL and about how you support putting in place an ombudsperson. Call for justice 1.7 also calls for putting in place an ombudsperson. I know that the federal government had a feasibility study done. It's going nowhere.

Why is it important—very quickly, because I have a bunch of questions—to put that in place right away? That's if you agree with me, and I think you do.

6:15 p.m.

Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime

Dr. Benjamin Roebuck

I sure do.

Yes, it's the power of negotiation to get things done and break through policies that we know add red tape. We can negotiate on things, as an ombud, to try to humanize responses from government institutions and advocate for a fair outcome. I think it makes a big difference.

If you look at the complaints we've resolved, you'll see that there's a lot of need in a lot of areas.

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you.

The second thing I want to bring up is violence within the justice system.

We often look to the justice system to solve violence. However, particularly for indigenous people, the justice system perpetrates violence. I want to read this very quickly. It's about Kinew James, who was incarcerated. Some of this comes from her family.

It says:

The family of Kinew James hopes the inquest into her death will take into account everything about her treatment during the nearly 15 years she spent in Canada's correctional institutions.

James died of an apparent heart attack in 2013 while in custody at the Regional Psychiatric Centre in Saskatoon.

An inquest into her death began Monday....

Then it talks about what happened before. I'm going to read this part.

It says:

Before that January day, she suffered from several ailments, including obesity, Type 2 diabetes and high cholesterol.

Her brother, Cecil James, said those were not pre-existing conditions when she was sentenced for manslaughter nearly 15 years earlier.

Cecil also said his sister's treatment inside the prison—specifically the time she spent in specialized confinement away from other prisoners—needs to be taken into account.

In 2013, Kinew's family said she complained of chest pains in the days leading up to her death. Inmates in neighbouring cells also alleged staff ignored her calls

An investigation into her death already found a nurse took too long to call a Code Blue after finding her unresponsive in her cell.

Kinew was nearing the end of a 15-year-sentence for manslaughter when she was transferred to Saskatoon. The 35-year-old had been transferred from the Grand Valley Institution for Women in Ontario after speaking out about guards who she said were smuggling in goods in exchange for sexual favours.

We're talking about sexual violence. I shared that because I'm concerned about the misrepresentation of prisons as “luxury”, when we know there's a lot of sexual violence that occurs in prisons. It's particularly concerning to me because a lot of women end up there as an indirect result of violence they're experiencing in intimate partner relationships. They make choices to avoid violence and end up being incarcerated.

I know the Elizabeth Fry Society did a report. In Manitoba right now, 85% of incarcerated persons are indigenous. Women who have had a life of gender-based violence are now incarcerated in places where systems are perpetrating gender-based violence.

What's being done about that? I feel like we don't talk about it.

6:20 p.m.

Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime

Dr. Benjamin Roebuck

Today, one of my investigators is in a federal prison for women, speaking with women about their experiences of sexual violence and the pathways of criminalization. Part of our investigation is looking at how survivors of sexual violence are criminalized and the different contexts that this criminalization emerges from.

On prison conditions, I'll say that many people have a relationship with the person who's been incarcerated. There are families that have this context. If somebody is mistreated in prison, it distracts from their ability to heal. Safety and human rights in prisons are important. That's part of our stance too.

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I agree. I know you spoke about prevention. You spoke about the charter, and the right to dignity and security of the person. That's one of the reasons I tried to pass a bill in support of a guaranteed livable basic income. My argument is that the willful placing of people in poverty is a violation of their dignity and security as a person. It was also in response to call for justice 4.5 of the national inquiry.

Do you think putting in place a guaranteed livable basic income is an important step in dealing with gender-based violence?

6:20 p.m.

Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime

Dr. Benjamin Roebuck

I think it aligns with an entire science of prevention. I appeared in the Senate committee to support that bill when it was coming through the Senate.

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

That's super. I didn't know that. This wasn't planned.

I want to move over to Madam Griver.

You spoke about prevention as well. Women's Shelters Canada came out with a report about how women's shelters cannot keep up with the need because there's not enough affordable housing with rent geared to income for women to go to. Why is it critical that there be greater investment? We talk about investment in affordable housing. I don't mean just affordable housing, but affordable housing with rent geared to income, which is what we need if we're going to deal with gender-based violence head-on.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

Leah, at this point, would you like to use your two minutes that you were going to get at the end right now?

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Can I do that?

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman

Let's do it.

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Can I do that? I'm sorry. I'm a time hog.

Time's ticking. Please answer.

6:20 p.m.

Co-chair, Woman Abuse Working Group

Erin Griver

We believe that there is a direct correlation between safe, accessible housing and the prevention of femicide.

As you all probably know, all of our shelter systems are overrun. We are a 40-bed shelter, but on a daily basis, we have numbers of 45 to 50 in shelter and across Hamilton. In the last few years, just at Inasmuch alone, we've turned away over 5,000 women in requests for spaces, and that is just one shelter, so multiply that by how many there are across the country.

I know that when I started 30 years ago in this work, women had six weeks to come into shelter and then to find safe, affordable housing. Many times they were able to do it. Now we're seeing stays of eight months or a year in shelter because they are not able to access safe, affordable housing. That then creates a backlog of women who need to come into shelter for safety reasons but who are not able to access safe shelter because we have women who normally in the past would have transitioned out into safe, affordable housing staying in shelter for longer.

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

We talk about intervention, but by that time, individuals have been murdered, have disappeared or have experienced violence. Do you think that a lack of adequate investment in prevention is resulting in an increase in gender-based violence?