Status of Women Committee on Nov. 27th, 2024

[Erin Griver]

I do, absolutely. I wouldn't just say there's a lack of investment in prevention: There is no investment in prevention. I think that is essential, then, because there will be a reduction in cases, costs and femicides.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

With all due respect, by the time the police get involved, the violence has occurred. I know that we have differing opinions about this around the table, but would you also agree that more focus, Ben, needs to be on the prevention if we're going to actually deal with gender-based violence?

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

We have to both prevent it and treat survivors respectfully and listen to their safety concerns.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes, and hopefully there will be fewer survivors because we're preventing it.

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

Yes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

That's excellent. Thank you.

At this point, we're going to quickly start our second round. I'm going to shorten it, and now we have just three minutes each.

Dominique, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll ask my questions quickly. The Jordan decision led to unfortunate delays for some victims. This obviously remains an ongoing issue. Bill C‑5 eliminates mandatory prison time, even for hardened criminals and criminals with lengthy records. Bill C‑75 makes it much easier to serve prison sentences at home.

Mr. Roebuck, would you say that these two pieces of legislation put victims at risk?

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

Our office doesn't comment on punishment specifically. Those decisions are outside of our mandate. However, we advocated very strongly around Bill C-5 that if there is going to be a greater reliance on house measures or home-based measures, there should be an increase in the safety measures for survivors, as well as structural reform to listen to what survivors might need if the person isn't incarcerated and is in their community.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

What would you say to politicians, such as the Quebec justice minister, who want Bill C‑5 reviewed and corrected?

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

That is not in my domain to comment on. However, I will say that in any jurisdiction, survivor safety matters. We need to strengthen the protections and make sure that the justice system doesn't treat the safety needs of survivors as secondary.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

The legislation is important and the police enforce it. This affects the victims. Witnesses have told us this as well.

Ms. Harris, don't you think these two pieces of legislation should be reviewed and corrected?

[Sgt Lisa Harris]

Certainly one of the things I advocated was stricter bail conditions. It's my understanding that the province is responsible for the enforcement of conditions when it comes to bail. However, there's a lack of resources. There's a lack of funding availability. Ankle bracelets are used only once the offender has pled guilty. Those types of conditions create an environment that allows the offender to be free and the victim to be at risk of further abuse.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Ms. Harris, Senator Boisvenu, whose daughter was murdered, told us that the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights was ineffective. It makes you wonder whether it's just a hollow shell. I believe that he also said that police officers become apathetic when they see criminals coming out of prison with multiple rights and victims left to fend for themselves while struggling to navigate through the challenges and remaining fearful and unprotected.

Do you agree with his reading of the facts?

[Sgt Lisa Harris]

Well, I didn't go into the file that MP Ferreri brought up initially during my first discussion in great detail, for the simple fact that it is still before the courts. However, that was a mother of five children. The offender, her abuser, was released for 42 days. She stayed at a women's shelter. She had five children with her. The oldest being a male, almost 14 years old, she had to move out. It was no longer an environment that was for him because of the effects of the intimate partner violence that he had witnessed.

There was no affordable housing available. They moved back to their same residence. She knew she was going to be killed walking her kids to school, and that's when she was kidnapped.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

MP Damoff, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you to all our witnesses for being here today.

Ben, I have a few questions for you. I have only three minutes, so I'm looking for quick answers.

You have done such incredible work, you and your office, with a minimal budget. Could you do more good work like the systemic review on sexual assaults if you had more funding?

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

We could do a lot more. An example would be with our systemic investigation. We had a contract lined up for somebody to conduct a focus group with people with profound disabilities to better understand the barriers of access to justice. It was only $10,000, but we had no money to be able to afford it.

We could certainly do more.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's one of the recommendations I'd like to see in the report from this study—to increase the funding in your office.

I first met you with regard to section 278.1. I know that you're supportive of changing that, as am I. We've talked about Jordan a lot. My colleague read a provision from Bill C-75. These are all Supreme Court decisions.

You mentioned that you don't support the notwithstanding clause. On Jordan, the government actually did try taking it back, and the Supreme Court kind of said, “Away you go.”

If we're not going to use the notwithstanding clause, are you saying that the government should go back to the Supreme Court with an emphasis on section 7?

I'm just wondering how you think we can deal with these Supreme Court decisions that are really making it difficult, and more than difficult: Women are losing lives because of Jordan in particular.

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

I'm certainly not a constitutional lawyer.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

No, I know.

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

I think we need to lay a better foundation in law. The Canadian Victims Bill of Rights has no cause of appeal, so it doesn't even come into federal court cases. Those rights don't play a role in a lot of ways. If we strengthen that legislation and strengthen our understanding and foundations of the charter rights to life, then I think it actually gives the Supreme Court more content to work with that can better account for survivor safety.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

One thing that has come up a lot in this study is bail. In the province of Ontario, 80% of people right now are actually being held without bail. These are technically innocent people who are being held, but the 20% are the ones we read about all the time.

We hear a lot about Bill C-75. In my community, we don't have a courthouse that's functioning properly, so judges won't sit there. Is Bill C-75 solely responsible for these issues with bail, or is there responsibility from the provincial governments to step up as well?

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

It's probably a bigger answer than I could give in this amount of time.

I think it's a shared responsibility. There are a lot of reasons that people are criminalized and brought in, such as people who are homeless and who are held on bail because they don't have resources to support their release. There are also conditions that aren't respected and have no recourse, and there are certainly conditions that we see that have very dangerous outcomes.

The government's done work, but it's an ongoing issue that needs further consideration.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.