Status of Women Committee on Dec. 4th, 2024

[Catherine Dubuc]

Unfortunately, I'm unable to comment on that. I don't have the information available to me.

What I can say is that for any bill that's enacted or that's even on the table being proposed at this time, we continue to monitor the impacts in terms of effects on our policing operations and investigations that are under way.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Do you know if you've successfully charged anyone under that, or could you find out for us?

[Catherine Dubuc]

I certainly could find out and provide a written submission following the meeting today.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That would be great.

How safe do you think queer spaces are in Canada right now, given the rise of hate, Mr. Wallis?

[Michael Wallis]

I get asked this question a lot.

Indeed, the centre provides a lot of time and attention to this, because we are often asked to evaluate special events in communities. As my colleagues alluded to, the challenge is that there's just a lot out there, and it's the non-rationality of this hatred. It's the disinformation that could cause someone to believe something that is completely false for even a long period of time.

I would even suggest that the person who would approach that nine-year-old is under a delusion, and that delusion could make them a victim of this echo chamber. In the strangest of circumstances, somebody that would propagate the hate could be deluded.

Based on the experience, keeping the finger on the pulse of events that are occurring in this country, we get to a position where we can, through the RCMP and through the service, keep track of subjects of interest who might have intent and capability. If they don't have it, then it comes back to this individual who is having a really unfortunate day and has been consuming unfortunate material and decides to take action.

When they do take action on that day, it may not even be because of a grievance against that particular community; it could be that they're unstable and that they've had a fight with their parent, or that they've lost a loved one or a job, and they're unhinged in this current society.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a lot of questions, but I may have a total of only six minutes because then it will be the turn of a Bloc Québécois colleague. So I'll try to be as brief as possible. I'd like to have a chance to ask each of the witnesses a question.

Mr. Madou, you mentioned religiously motivated crimes in your opening remarks. As you know, we have a gap in the Criminal Code, and I'm going to explain the way it relates to our study.

The National Assembly of Quebec has requested that Ottawa take action to address hate speech, which has been on the rise since the Middle East war. However, Canada's Criminal Code protects individuals who promote hatred by allowing them to express their hate speech if they do so in good faith or if their speech is based on a religious text.

How can this religious exception encourage individuals to commit certain crimes against the LGBT community?

The Bloc Québécois introduced Bill C‑367 to eliminate that exception in the Criminal Code. I don't know if you've heard about it. If not, have you heard about this gap, and do you think it would be important to fill it?

[Peter Madou]

Thank you for your question.

I find it hard to answer your question directly. However, I think we can see from our investigations and analyses that hateful rhetoric, whatever it may be, mainly occurs online and further encourages many young people to commit violence.

What we've seen in the religious space in recent years is that, unlike what was happening a few years ago when people became radicalized in Canada and committed attacks abroad, radicalization now originates online outside the country and young people are radicalized and commit their acts here.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Great. I'll definitely have an opportunity to come back to that during this study.

Mr. Wallis, you brought up this point. Both you and Mr. Madou actually discussed the online hatred issue. How important is it to monitor online hatred so we can determine at what point it becomes criminal? How important is it to monitor online hate speech and threats more closely.

You can also discuss the religious exception I mentioned.

[Michael Wallis]

Yes, I believe it's absolutely important. I believe it's critical to address this. If I have been eloquent today, it's to speak to the ambiguity in this space, such that some of these statements and actions might be criminal or both criminal or national security. That ambiguity is entirely problematic.

It is for this reason that I sit as a member of the counter-terrorism and national security committee of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. It's so that I can work with my assessments to help the police understand the ambiguity of this, so that it can clearly be addressed as either hate or hate with national security considerations.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

There's a great deal of misinformation and disinformation online. These activities also have to be recognized as criminal, but police officers say they don't currently have the right tools to address them. The religious exception in the Criminal Code is also a problem.

Ms. Dubuc, yesterday I spoke with representatives of an organization I had recently met at the Fondation Émergence Gala in Montreal. The Vivago inclusive health clinic provides care to women and people in the LGBTQ+ community. The organization's representatives told me it isn't as easy for people in that community to find appropriate care in the health care system because there's still too much misinformation and disinformation out there.

They also confirmed that there really is a lack of trust in the system and that no one dares to report it. They've drawn that conclusion from information they've received while providing care. Without violating professional secrecy, they nevertheless confirmed that those who do report are only the tip of the iceberg because people are afraid of the health and justice systems. So there's a lack of trust.

In one minute, what would you add to that in response to the Vivago inclusive health clinic?

[Catherine Dubuc]

Thank you for your question.

As for the RCMP, through our Hate Crimes Task Force, which is a national group involving 13 police forces across the country, we are in the process of putting tools in place for our frontline officers, including investigators. For example, we want to define what a hate crime is and what a hate incident is and to expand our capacity to build trust and put tools in place in the communities. We're working with community organizations like the one you mentioned in order to establish the necessary resources and encourage the co‑operation of a variety of people in attempting to increase the rate at which people report hate crimes and incidents. The idea is really to equip our officers and the public.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I was about to end on that note. I've also been told how important it is to properly train and inform judges and stakeholders and that there's a great deal of work to do in that area. That's all, Ms. Dubuc. Thank you very much.

[Catherine Dubuc]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thanks to you both.

MP Gazan, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I'd like to thank all our witnesses for coming today to do what I feel is an urgent study in regard to the rise of anti-LGBTQ+ hate crimes in the country.

I want to speak specifically about a report that CSIS released in 2023. It stated that “the ecosystem of violent rhetoric within the anti-gender movement, compounded with other extreme world views, can lead to serious violence.”

I would argue that there are many public figures now, especially with social media, who are contributing to an increase in violence. I'm going to give you examples. There's Jordan Peterson, who lost his licence to practise as a psychologist...inciting much hate, including transphobic hate. There's True North, which is a right-wing—in my opinion extremist—media outlet.

You don't have to talk about them specifically as people, but do you feel that this kind of rhetoric is fuelling the fire for people who are vulnerable to extremist behaviour?

[Peter Madou]

Most definitely, I think violent extremism stems from a range of ideologies that are driven by hate. There's been a clear echo chamber of hate and violence online that doesn't always meet a criminal threshold or intersect with national security, but it most definitely contributes to aggravating people who are more susceptible to being radicalized.

From a service perspective, what we notice is that, specifically in terms of the religiously motivated violence and extremism that we investigate, when that violence is exercised, it tends to go against anti-Semitism or against the anti-2SLGBTQIA+ communities.

Often, I would say it's a bit like how my colleague referred to it. Some of these things are so individual that you don't know when someone's going to mobilize to violence, but when they do, they may just take a target of opportunity, and it would be among those communities that are easily vulnerable to being attacked.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Has that violence increased since the pandemic? Answer yes or no. I don't have a lot of time.

[Peter Madou]

I would say we have an increase in investigations, for sure.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Is that in hate crimes perpetrated against the 2SLGBTQ+ community?

[Peter Madou]

We don't investigate hate crimes, but in terms of the violent extremists who are espousing these views, we have an increase.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Madam Dubuc.

[Catherine Dubuc]

Without a doubt. Part of my opening remarks indicated that since 2019, there's been a significant rise, and it's certainly a concern the RCMP shares with other police forces across the country.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

As members of Parliament, we have a lot of power and influence. That's the reality of it. We have a huge audience.

Amnesty International put out an article called “Pierre Poilievre’s comments about trans women ‘a dangerous distraction’”. Basically, what it says.... You don't need to comment about the leader specifically. I'm not asking about him. I'm talking just about the kind of political rhetoric we're hearing in the House of Commons. That's my intention. That's coming from very deep worry.

A person named Elishma Khokhar said in the article:

Targeting trans women is a dangerous distraction that threatens the lives and rights of 2SLGBTQQIA+ people and diverts attention from the real systemic causes of gender-based violence. Politicians serious about ending gender-based violence in Canada must base their policies on the facts rather than harmful and divisive rhetoric.

We certainly see in Canada an increase of disinformation in politics. We certainly see a rise in disinformation coming from the States.

I'll ask you this question, Mr. Wallis, because you haven't had a chance to speak. Would you argue that the disinformation campaigns being perpetrated by political parties place 2SLGBTQQIA+ at greater risk for harm?

[Michael Wallis]

I spoke earlier about this ambiguity, which requires us, as a society, to look at things that are acceptable and unacceptable.

I would say that in normal times, when society isn't as polarized as it appears to be at present, what happens is we have voices that are extreme existing on the fringes of the Internet. These folks used to meet in areas that were private, but they have now mainstreamed their violence. The truth is that public discourse is now mixed with a whole bunch of violent, extremist rhetoric, and it is difficult for some more vulnerable members of our society to truly understand what is being said to them and who, in their view, is responsible for their grievances.

The ambiguity and the mainstreaming of violence are the problem in question.