Status of Women Committee on Dec. 9th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 137 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

For all members, please wait until I recognize you by name prior to speaking.

I'd also like to remind everyone that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Thank you all for your co‑operation.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, September 25, 2024, the committee will resume its study of hate-motivated violence targeting the 2SLGBTQI+ community.

Prior to my welcoming our witnesses I would like to provide a trigger warning. We will be discussing experiences related to hate-motivated violence. This may be triggering to viewers with similar experiences. If at any point any participants feel distressed or need help, please advise the clerk for assistance. For all witnesses and for all members of Parliament, as always, it's important to recognize that these are difficult conversations, so let's try to be as compassionate as we can be.

At this point, I would like to welcome our witnesses. We have, from the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate for New Brunswick, Kelly Lamrock, child and youth advocate, who is joining us by video conference; from Egale Canada, Bennett Jensen, director, legal; from QueerTech, Naoufel Testaouni, chief executive officer; and from the Society of Queer Momentum, Fae Johnston, executive director.

At this point, we will begin with our opening statements.

Mr. Lamrock, you have the floor for up to five minutes.

[Kelly Lamrock, Child and Youth Advocate, Government of New Brunswick]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank you the committee for its interest in this very important issue.

Maybe to start off I can simply share the experience here in New Brunswick. As some may know, we have been through a period of rather intense scrutiny. New Brunswick was the first province where the provincial government introduced so-called parental notification changes. In New Brunswick, it began with the claim that there had been hundreds of emails from parents who'd had bad experiences with the previous policy, which was to affirm and respect the choices of children if they chose to change the names or the gender identity pronouns by which they wanted to be addressed. There was an initial claim that hundreds of emails detailing bad experiences had come in to my office, which does have the power to compel documents. I asked for those and found, in fact, that there were four.

What is interesting is that, of the four emails that triggered the review of the policy, a number made reference to tropes that had become familiar to us in the child advocate's office. There were complaints of litter boxes and schoolchildren identifying as cats; claims of increases in attacks on children or women in women-only spaces; and, interestingly, a couple of references to the World Economic Forum. It's worth noting to the committee that many things can be traced back to a common information source. Indeed, we have seen an increase in the number of talking points and the number of bot accounts that repeat them.

The recent CPAC convention in the United States had a speaker who reminded people that the way to fight back against LGB rights was to isolate the T, and that trans people and changes in gender identity represent a new chapter that, unlike gay marriage or same-sex marriage, people have not had time to culturally digest.

It's the latest area where things might be new to people, and some of the same misinformation and misunderstandings are shared and amplified. We have seen a number of common ones, even in the traffic that we monitor here in the office—similar talking points—such as the idea that there is recruitment going on and that teachers are involved in conspiracies to keep things from parents. Some of those were the subject of a number of outside-the-province mail-ins and that kind of thing.

In fact, as a result of the recent changes, my office was directed by a legislative motion where, in the legislature, someone in protest of the changes asked us to have a public consultation to see where the public was. I have never had an issue in New Brunswick that drew so much out-of-province traffic, often repeating some of the same tropes.

As part of that review, we began interviewing families and teens themselves who are trans or have gone through some re-examination of their gender identities. The stories were heartbreaking.

One teacher said that since the matter has arisen, their child has had several incidents where they were told to kill themselves. There has been more religious targeting, with Bible verses screamed at kids. We have noticed an effort among some far right groups, even those outside the province, to recruit among religious or newcomer communities where these issues may still have some religious salience.

There were a number of folks who repeated to us in emails that if their child were trans, they would be thrown out of the house. The other trope that was common is that these were social, caused by societal pressure, that somehow it was just trendy to change gender identity, and that it wasn't real.

We know, of course, that the statistics indicate—and I'm sure some of my friends from Egale and other groups will share—that we have seen a significant spike beyond New Brunswick just in anti-LGBTQ2S violence, threats online, etc. We have seen more of an uptick in New Brunswick schools in the number of matters being dealt with in terms of harassment and threats against LGBTQ students.

In many ways, because of the panic-inducing rhetoric that again seems to have its source even outside Canada, let alone outside New Brunswick, repeating some of the same tropes that were present 30 years ago when same-sex marriage was debated—that there is recruitment and that there are links that, of course, don't exist between pedophilia and questioning your gender identity.... All of those have made a comeback.

I can tell you that, as an advocate, I have responded to a number of those. They all seem to use some of the same incidents. They all seem to quote some of the same things, including—interestingly enough—the common complaints about the World Economic Forum and litter boxes in schools.

We also are aware of cases in New Brunswick where two or three times children were thrown out by their parents from the home after being found to be trans or questioning their gender identity because the parents had come to believe some of the things they were reading online.

Certainly, in New Brunswick, the story has a somewhat happy ending in that the new provincial government has said that it will be amending the policy back to being affirming and respectful of every child, regardless of whether they're trans or not, to recognize the fact that children with capacity can, indeed, make choices around how they want to be called in day-to-day matters. They can choose their own name and pronouns, as any of us can.

The debate is not whether the state or the parent has the say; it is, in fact, when the child becomes capable of making their own decisions and when schools have to respect that.

I'm happy to—

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you, Mr.—

Oh, sorry to interrupt.

[Kelly Lamrock]

I'm happy to take questions.

I was going to say that we have a number of things to fight misinformation online that we're looking at. I'd be happy to address that in the question period.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Next I would like to welcome Mr. Jensen.

You have the floor for up to five minutes.

[Bennett Jensen, Director of Legal, Egale Canada]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

As was mentioned, my name is Bennett Jensen. I use he/him pronouns, and I'm the director of legal at Egale Canada.

Egale is Canada's longest standing, largest national 2SLGBTQI organization. It was founded in 1986 and, since that time, has been at the forefront of advocating for the rights of queer and trans communities.

I've been at Egale for just under two years. Unfortunately, in that time, I've had to spend the majority of my time litigating some of the issues that Mr. Lamrock spoke about. I've been counsel in litigation in New Brunswick, Saskatchewan and, late Friday, we filed litigation in Alberta.

I'm incredibly grateful to this committee for undertaking this important study.

As Mr. Lamrock suggested, Egale does have a lot of statistics about just how much the rates of violence and crime against our communities have risen in recent years. What's particularly troubling is that the rate of violent crime in particular has risen. We'll be making additional submissions in writing to this committee. I'm going to use my oral remarks, my time today, to focus on a very specific kind of violence.

Although I'm appearing today as a lawyer, I won't be speaking about the law. I am going to use my time to bring a message to elected officials not just on this committee, Madam Chair, but across the country on behalf of the incredible gender diverse young people who I've had the privilege of getting to know over the past several years. That message is to please leave us alone.

Let me explain. The gender-diverse and trans population is exceedingly small. It is hard to get accurate statistics, but it is almost certainly less than one per cent of the total population. This community, as the Supreme Court recognized in the spring of 2023 in its landmark Hansman and Neufeld decision, is also extremely vulnerable. It is always hard to be different and to be in a minority, but trans people have historically been portrayed as sick, perverse and not real or valid. In the year 2024, I hope that it is not controversial to say, as the Supreme Court has, that there is no basis for this prejudice or stereotyping and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being trans.

Yet, unfortunately, that is not the message that trans young people across this country have been hearing from some elected officials. As is not unusual with a tiny minority population, trans youth are not well understood by those who do not know them. That's generally okay as long as we continue to live in a country where difference is welcome.

There is well-established and long-established social science and medical expertise on how best to meet the unique needs of trans young people. So many parents of trans youth across the country are doing everything they can to create environments for their kids where they can grow and develop with support and acceptance.

Unfortunately, in recent years, trans youth have been the victims of extensive misinformation and targeting. Much of this has come from political leaders, leading to devastating consequences on the ground, because the truth is, if met with love and acceptance, trans kids are very typical. They have all sorts of different interests and personalities, and, as I have been told countless times, their so-called “transness” is the least interesting thing about them.

For many young people across the country, this ability to just experience their youth has been devastated through harmful political rhetoric. When the restrictions described in New Brunswick were introduced, they were unfortunately accompanied by careless and inaccurate public statements by political leaders. These statements had significant negative consequences, as we've already heard, for young people.

One parent told me how her son, who had been a happy-go-lucky young boy, young man, had to be picked up from a gas station across the street from school where he was hiding in the bathroom because he had been followed off campus at lunch multiple times. She said that she had to spend night after night for weeks on end sitting at the end of his bed because she was scared he would not make it through the night.

The trans youth I speak with want nothing more than to be left alone, removed from political discourse and allowed to just be teens and kids.

As elected officials, you have the power to change the realities of children and youth across this country, yes, through legislation and policy but also through your words. I urge all elected officials in this country to use that power to create a country where all of us, especially children and youth, have the chance to live freely and belong, no matter their identity.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you, Mr. Jensen.

Mr. Testaouni, you have the floor for up to five minutes.

[Naoufel Testaouni, Chief Executive Officer, QueerTech]

Madam Chair, thank you for inviting me and QueerTech to contribute to this important conversation.

My name is Naoufel Testaouni. I'm the co-founder and CEO of QueerTech and a board member of Fierté Montréal and Montreal NewTech. I've worked with non-profits in Morocco, led a student placement organization in New York and managed teams at Microsoft in the Middle East and Africa.

QueerTech, Canada's largest 2SLGBTQIA+ tech group, represents 10,000 “queer in tech” professionals. Our mission is to “queer the tech ecosystem” by increasing representation, advancing leaders and empowering founders. QueerTech is vital to Canada, driving innovation and prosperity in Canada's economy via a diverse workforce.

When supported, the queer community is a powerful contributor to the economy. Canada's 100,000-plus queer-owned businesses generate over $22 billion annually and employ over 435,000 Canadians.

I grew up in Morocco, where being gay is illegal. In 2007, I moved to New York City, but soon realized the flaws of the American dream. Seeking alignment with my values, I chose Montreal for Canada's leadership in human rights, education and inclusivity.

Sitting here as a witness today feels surreal. I never thought conversations surrounding basic human rights would be needed in Canada ever again. We're now seeing provinces restrict education and the right to knowledge. This hateful movement of disinformation is harming our most vulnerable: children.

Let me tell you two stories.

In their youth, Alex notices they are different, but doesn't understand why. In intermediate grades, Alex learns about gender identity and expression, feels seen and opens up to a supportive teacher. With knowledge and a support system, Alex has choices. They can advocate, confide or protect themselves.

As Alex starts to use social media, online hate begins. Some perpetrators are human, but many are AI-powered bots fuelled by algorithms that create echo chambers of divisive content. Some 72% of queer individuals are exposed to hate online.

At university, Alex connects with QueerTech. With resilience, community and skills, Alex excels in tech. After five years, Alex starts a business, creating jobs, contributing to the economy and giving back.

Charlie is just like Alex, except Charlie never learns about gender identity or hears their teacher speak positively about the queer community. Teachers and parents remain unaware of Charlie's struggles.

Charlie faces online hate and begins to believe the problem is with them, withdrawing from family and peers while encountering even more online hate. When they confide in their parents, misinformation leaves them confused and unsupported, isolating Charlie further.

Consumed with self-hatred, Charlie falls into the 40% of queer youth who are homeless, spiralling into addiction and self-harm. Like all trans Canadians, Charlie is more than five times more likely to commit suicide during their life. Even if Charlie survives, mental health struggles, financial insecurity and low resilience hinder them from thriving like Alex.

Nearly one-third of Gen Z identifies as 2SLGBTQIA+. They are the future leaders of our world. Do we want a nation of Alexes, thriving and contributing to society, or a nation of Charlies, enduring tragedy and self-hatred, and straining our economy and social services?

Police-reported hate crimes against queer people have risen 388% in seven years. We urgently need protection and support.

I hope my remarks today provide insight into the lived experiences of queer people and the consequences of inadequate support systems. We know the economic case for inclusion, but the cost of inaction will be severe if these harmful trends continue unaddressed.

The government should require transparency from digital platforms regarding their hate speech policies and their enforcement of them. AI should be regulated to prevent the amplification of hate speech, with safeguards for inclusivity. Anti-discrimination policies must be strengthened across all sectors, including tech, with clear guidelines for employers and legal recourse for those facing discrimination. Increased funding for relevant organizations is also essential.

I was a Charlie, growing up in Morocco. Canada turned me into an Alex. This is the best outcome I could have hoped for. I've already fled three countries out of fear for my life. If hate continues to rise in Canada, where can I go?

In closing, I urge the committee to consider these barriers and take meaningful actions to address them. Please take care of Charlie.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you, Mr. Testaouni.

Next, I would like to welcome Ms. Johnstone.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Fae Johnstone, Executive Director, Society of Queer Momentum]

Good morning, and thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to speak today.

As mentioned, my name is Fae Johnstone. I am a trans woman, I use “she” and “they” pronouns and I'm the executive director of the Society of Queer Momentum. When we saw the beginning of rising hate in Canada, we were one of the organizations that tapped in alongside our friends at Egale to support the response to governments and politicians restricting the rights and freedoms of vulnerable young people and their families.

I would like to begin by expressing my gratitude to this committee for undertaking this study. It could not come at a more pivotal or urgent moment as we again see the rise of anti-2SLGBTQI+ hate. Unfortunately, we see both its normalization and its acceleration, and, now, its politicization by certain political parties and governments across Canada.

Every week I hear stories that break my heart: stories of terrified parents, scared kids and everyday Canadians who happen to be queer or trans who just want to live their lives and contribute to their communities but see this country becoming less safe and less free for them and their families. They are stories of rising violence that is not just targeting trans people but is rippling through the full queer community.

Since the 1960s, Canada and much of the world has been on a slow march towards freedom, human rights and equality for queer and trans people. Now we have unfortunately entered a period of global backlash. Transgender people are the convenient target. Bluntly, we look a little bit more different. We are often more visibly gender-nonconforming. I am a 5'11", broad-shouldered, deep-voiced trans lady, and I think I'm a great example of this, and I love that about myself and my community. Because of who we are and how we look, we force people to confront the hostility and stigma that many hold towards gender and sexual diversity. We represent through our very existence a rejection of the systemic misogyny, homophobia and transphobia that are unfortunately still embedded in Canadian society.

That, unfortunately, makes us a convenient target for those who dislike the possibilities and freedom that we embody, but while we are a convenient target, this is about so much more than 1% of the population. This rise in anti-queer and anti-trans hate, driven unfortunately by social conservative and far-right groups and their proxies, seeks to achieve three critical goals.

The first is to roll back acceptance of the broader LGBTQ community using the demonization and dehumanization of transgender people as a stepping stone to achieve broader regression.

The second is that they hope to use fear and misinformation to rationalize government interference in the fundamental rights, freedoms and health care access of diverse Canadians; to weaken the protection of minority rights; and to normalize governments overriding our bodily autonomy and putting themselves between families and the health care their kids need.

I would urge committee members to understand that there is a longer game at play here, and that the agenda these organizations and groups are pushing is not just about trans people but about restricting access to reproductive rights and health services, as well as restricting or weakening our human rights framework that keeps minorities of all sorts safe from hate and from government involvement in and restriction of our freedoms.

What scares me most in Canada today is witnessing this hateful agenda becoming mainstream. We have seen certain politicians, including members of legislative assemblies, members of provincial parliaments and, indeed, members of Parliament in the House of Commons aiding and abetting the rise of anti-queer and anti-trans hate with misleading slogans and dog whistles that embolden and normalize hate. Their purpose here is sometimes simple political self-interest. They cue their support to these groups in hopes that they'll show up at the doors and support particular parties, but in other situations we see politicians—

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

You're speaking too quickly. We no longer have interpretation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Perhaps we're going to just try to slow down a little bit, okay?

[Fae Johnstone]

I have a recurring problem with this.

My apologies to the interpreters.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

No worries.

Let's try to begin again.

[Fae Johnstone]

In other situations, we see politicians amplifying this rhetoric because they have a shared agenda. Those social conservatives who have been quiet in the days since marriage equality are getting loud again. Their agenda, again, is not just about trans people. It's about a world where they would, if they could and if they can, roll back marriage equality, the rights of transgender people, reproductive rights and the social acceptance of queer and trans folks.

I would challenge, bluntly, any Conservative member of Parliament on this committee to look me in the eye and say that Pierre Poilievre's comments about gender ideology are anything short of propagating conspiracy and hostility towards queer and trans people. Those comments throw gasoline on the fire of rising hate, even as we see the freedom and the rights of members of our community restricted. Many of us, as you have heard, are terrified about the direction Canada is headed in.

I would urge those same MPs to tweet their support of transgender rights, and our right to dignity and freedom, and watch what happens next. Watch when your supporters turn on you and accuse you of supporting pedophilia, grooming and all sorts of related filth simply for supporting a minority's freedom. Watch as you are reprimanded by members of your leader's staff for showing your support for transgender people.

I am scared of where we are headed if anti-queer and anti-trans hate rises. I know where it leads. It leads to acts of extreme violence that result in lost lives, made possible by a tsunami of everyday acts of exclusion, discrimination and violence that will make life a living hell for transgender and queer people on this land.

I believe in a Canada where everyone is free; where we've shed our age-old hostility to gender and sexual diversity; where we treat our neighbours with respect, even if they, their families and their lives look different from ours. I dream of a Canada where my community doesn't have to come to spaces like this and plead that you'll see our humanity; that you'll see our right to dignity; and that you'll help us address a rise that threatens all that I love about this country—one that I have grown up in, in small towns and big cities, and that has welcomed me as the human that I am.

We have indeed come so far. We simply want to be left alone, to be able to contribute to our communities, to grow up in healthy families and to live happy, fulfilling lives. We have come so far, but we need you, as our leaders across political parties, because this should not be a partisan issue, to rise above the vitriol and resist the normalization of hate at the expense of queer people's humanity.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

I'd like to thank you all for your opening remarks.

At this point, we will move to our first round of questioning.

Michelle Ferreri, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much to our witnesses for being here today. I appreciate your time and your information.

I guess I'll start with you, Mr. Lamrock. I would love any stats that you have. How long have you been with the organization, or how long has the organization been around?

[Kelly Lamrock]

Well, I'm with the Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, so since 1867.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Kelly Lamrock]

I'm a legislative officer, Ms. Ferreri, but I was appointed advocate in February 2022.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

You look great, by the way, for 1867.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Kelly Lamrock]

I do my best.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Your skin cream is working out for you.

Do we have comparative data on children who are seeking help or are identifying? That's what I'm trying to get to. Do we have that kind of data? Do you also have comparative data with other provinces?

[Kelly Lamrock]

I could take it under advisement and find some of what we received from StatsCan and others when I did the review of New Brunswick's policy and produced our “On Balance, Choose Kindness” report. I think what I have seen would back up what my colleague from Egale said, that the numbers in an absolute sense are low.

Have there been changes? There have certainly been more people identifying or indeed reporting at some point as questioning.... Whether that's a function of an actual social change or simply more openness, it's hard to say. My dad's left-handed. They used to hit him at school when he used his left hand. We've all heard that one by now.

I haven't seen a whole lot that answers that question definitively.