Status of Women Committee on Dec. 16th, 2024

[Lauren Pragg]

Thank you so much for the question.

I would just say that isolation is largely leading to that. The roots of that are complex. The whittling down of community spaces is a really big part of that.

Tyler Boyce was talking about connecting with people outside of your own demographic. There are a lot of examples of this. Those spaces and those opportunities are fewer and fewer for people. Especially for youth who may have gone to school virtually for the majority of their high school experience, etc., it's becoming more and more difficult. Social services don't have funding, so there's less opportunity for things like volunteering or summer jobs and things like that. It's harder for them to get those kinds of connections and make real relationships, I would say.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Thank you, Lauren Pragg.

Next, we have a two and a half minutes for Madame Larouche.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

ggle previewThank you, Madam Chair.

I want to apologize to the witnesses. Mostly, though, I am embarrassed for members of the committee. We obviously didn't learn anything from our meeting this summer, when members tried to politicize violence against women, just as this important issue is being politicized today. I urge my fellow members to remember that witnesses asked us not to turn this into a political issue.

That said, I very much want to thank Lauren Pragg, Tyler Wisner and Tyler Boyce for their remarks, which are very helpful to our study.

Mr. Breault, I found it interesting when you brought up the investigation by the Métro newspaper reporters.

Ms. Baker, I know the show “Décrypteurs” addresses these things.

With all the disinformation and misinformation out there, it's important to highlight that traditional media outlets have to abide by rules of ethics, unlike online media, which can post just about anything. I sometimes equate the online media world with the Wild West because it doesn't have the same rules and it contributes to the partisan polarization on this issue.

Could you explain why traditional media are an important tool for addressing the concerns of the LGBTQ community, as compared with social media?

[Olivia Baker]

Digital literacy tools also come to mind. We were talking earlier about the importance of education. I provide training in corporate settings, and the people in my sessions tend to be what you'd call white-collar workers. These are pretty educated people, but they still ask me about litter boxes in schools.

What I'm trying to say is that people have access to so much information that it's sometimes hard to differentiate between what's true and what isn't. When it's something people read, they don't always distinguish between a real news article and a story.

We were talking about accountability. I would like to see media organizations citing their sources, and being more transparent and clear in how they report the information.

I would also like to see fact-checking tools. I encourage the participants in my training sessions to check the information. I know there are a lot of English-language tools, sites like Snopes, which I use. In French, the show “Décrypteurs” is an option people can use. Quebec's chief scientist wrote an article about trans women in sport, as well as one about the litter boxes in schools. However, it doesn't seem that the resources are familiar to everyone, and they don't necessarily cover everything.

I think one way to help counter disinformation is having individual media outlets or news sources taking a strong stance on the information they report. People would know they could trust the source of the information. They would know where to draw the line in terms of what is true and what is based on research and science.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Thank you, Madam Baker.

Next, we have Ms. Gazan. You have two and a half minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Madame Sidhu.

I want to be really clear: This is a non-partisan issue. Human rights are a non-partisan issue. All committee members supported the study. I want to be really clear about that.

I also want to be really clear that what we do as elected officials and the messages we send, as we have been cautioned by the witnesses today, can either harm or help people. I take my role as a member of Parliament very seriously. I worry about how the halls of power are being used right now in a way that can harm people.

Saying that, I want to ask you a question, Tyler Boyce. You spoke a lot about education. I was a teacher. I feel so sad about what's happening in schools, because I was a teacher. I was actually a sex ed teacher at the beginning of my career.

Why is education important?

Do you think members of Parliament should have to go through mandatory training when they are elected to understand their roles and legal obligations to uphold the charter, which includes the whole Constitution? It seems that we pick and choose when to uphold it and when not to, depending on the issue.

[Tyler Boyce]

I really appreciate the question.

Of course, I'm a huge proponent of providing folks with the tools they might need to do their jobs in the best way possible. In this case, I think it's very clear that it also includes training on the language to use to ensure that folks are not unintentionally causing harm.

I would also add that, in response to the first part of your question on education, my mom was also an educator. When we talk about education, we have to remember—and I want to bring this into the community—to look at the diversity of witnesses who have been called to provide testimony. We didn't all just fall from the sky; we all come from our own individual communities.

I want to present this committee with the fact that there is a tremendous opportunity for us to share the lessons learned that we've already had to learn in our individual communities—religious, racial, ethnic and otherwise—which have built bridges. That's why, when we talk about education, and when I talk about it, I'm such a huge proponent of the fact that people can change their minds, that people can see things in a different way, because I know I've done it, and I know that all of my colleagues who are here today have done it in their own communities. Allow us to bring those lessons learned to those in the House of Commons as well.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Thank you, Mr. Boyce.

Next, we have Mrs. Roberts.

You have five minutes.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, I want to state for the record that I'm really disappointed in the other parties that want to politicize this, especially to my colleague across the way, when I mentioned a personal client of mine who shared her very deep story with me. It was because of her background and her religious beliefs that I brought it to the forefront. That's why I was talking about education, because we need to make sure that, in Canada, everyone is accepted. That was my point. I'm very disappointed.

However, let's talk about online harms.

Tyler, I'm so sorry that you had to deal with someone who threatened you. That's not acceptable. I am interested to hear from you about the operations....

Bill C-412 aims to ensure that we don't have this hatred online. The Liberals are trying to stop it because they want to create another department. We don't need $200 million going towards another department. In my view, we need that money to go towards what you've stated today about education and helping people understand that it doesn't matter whom you love, and it doesn't matter whom you want to love. That's your personal choice. That's the freedom that Canada offers.

I'm tired of this committee's pointing the finger at our Conservative leader who is a believer. We have a deputy leader who is gay and who is proud of it, and we're proud of her. I'm not sure where this is going with the Liberals, because when you point fingers, four more point back at you.

I want to let you know that I'm sorry that you encountered hatred online. That's not acceptable. I have family members who are gay, whom I love dearly and trust from here to the ends of the world, and I'm proud of them.

Why can't we make sure that this online hatred...? Introducing Bill C-412 would stop it and would make them accountable so that individuals who choose to love whomever they choose to love would be allowed to do that without hate.

Mr. Wisner, I'd like you to respond.

[Tyler Wisner]

Thank you very much. I do feel your empathy, so thank you.

Again, because of my position at the Department of Justice, I will not comment on federal policies, but I'd be more than happy to continue talking about the exclusion, bullying, hate or violence that my campers have experienced and have told me about. That's really the experience that I want to bring and that I want to relay; the rise in anti-trans, anti-LGBT and sexist rhetoric has been devastating for queer youth across North America. We have campers from the States. We have campers from the territories.

Thank you.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I would say that the best way to stop this hatred—and I agree with the educational part, absolutely, one hundred per cent—would be to make sure that people understand that you can choose to love whomever you wish. We're not here to judge that. No one should be. Don't you feel that if we could stop this rhetoric online, this hatred online, it would help with the educational process?

[Tyler Wisner]

I would say that hateful online rhetoric definitely limits the reach of education.

Again, I'm not an expert in social media regulations and, because of my position at the Department of Justice, I can't comment on it.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Mr. Boyce, do you not agree that we need to stop this hatred online? I get sick when I see it. I really do. I think there should be some consequences to that.

[Tyler Boyce]

I want to commend all of the folks who are part of this committee for agreeing to go through with this study and for unanimously accepting that it go forward. I think everybody in this room can agree that something needs to be done to ensure that online safety is a reality, especially for our trans youth, who are right now experiencing a very hard time.

As for whose approach we use to get there, I think that debate is something that should happen in the House of Commons. On this committee, I can share that those conversations need to happen in collaboration with queer and trans organizations, that are working on the front lines every day. We have a multitude of stories and realities among folks who are experiencing online hate. We have the data and the stories about how that hate is translated into real-life instances of lack of safety for our community. I hope that expertise can complement this ongoing discussion about which pathway is going to get us there.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I hope we will look at Bill C-412, so that we can make sure we can stop people who project that hatred online, because it has to stop.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Thank you, Mrs. Roberts.

Next, we have Ms. Damoff.

You have five minutes on the floor.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thanks so much, Chair.

I'm so happy to get another opportunity to ask our incredible witnesses questions.

For the record, the legislation the Conservatives mentioned is a private member's bill that has no hope of ever seeing the light of day. It also puts the onus on a victim to come forward and get digital or social media companies to respond.

Tyler, I know my experience with reaching out to them results in nothing. Our Sergeant-at-Arms says you can't even reach out to Twitter anymore.

If my colleagues haven't read it yet, I want to focus on a report from the Office of the Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime that came out last week. It's called “Strengthening Access to Justice for Victims of Hate Crime in Canada”. It's an outstanding report. I asked him to submit it to the committee for evidence.

I want to read you some of the stats.

Tyler, you mentioned one particular death threat. I know that's not the only one you've encountered.

It says:

72% of police officers said their police service did not have a dedicated hate crime unit. Of those that did, 44% had only one officer

44% of victim services had fewer than 5 paid staff

73% of victim services cited limited resources as a significant barrier to providing adequate support

77% of police officers and 82% of victim service workers believed the proposed standalone hate crime offence in Bill C-63 would be helpful or very helpful.

It also says:

Throughout the years, discriminatory laws have marginalized 2SLGBTQIA+ people, and recent data suggest they are more likely to suffer physical harm from hate crimes than other targeted groups.

He's made 13 outstanding recommendations that I hope colleagues will take the time to read.

Again, I'll start with the Tylers in the room. Then, if we have time, I'll go online.

Have you gone to the police to report hate crimes, and what has been your experience if you have?

Tyler Boyce, I'll start with you.

[Tyler Boyce]

After experiencing a hate crime with my partner when we were out for a walk in our neighbourhood, we did report the hate crime, and it really wasn't a very good experience. There were a lot of questions about what actually happened, almost as if they didn't believe us. In terms of the support provided, the call began, and when the call ended, nothing ever came of it. Maybe it's because they're understaffed; maybe it's because they don't have the information, but this really spurred us at the Enchanté Network to understand that this wasn't an individual experience but one that was happening to thousands of Canadians across the country.

We went out and asked folks why they were not reporting to the police when they had experienced a hate crime. We unlocked a can of worms about the deep relationship, or lack thereof, between police services and queer and trans communities. There's a lot of trust that needs to be rebuilt there so that queer and trans folks feel safe to report a hate crime, whether on the phone or in person.

To put it in context, imagine being a trans person walking into a police station to report that you have experienced a hate crime. Do we believe that person is going to be met with an environment that allows her to tell her authentic story about something traumatic that happened to her?

I think that, in the women's rights movement, folks understand what it means to come forward and tell your story, and all the barriers that are included in that process. There are lessons to be learned there.

First, we do need to build up police services to be able to respond, but we also need to understand how to put community in the position where they feel comfortable reporting these hate crimes in the first place.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

One of these recommendations is actually to invest in training for police in victim services, which speaks to your point. I just read that there was a horrific crime in Hamilton against a transwoman who was beaten and lost her teeth. Through victim services, a GoFundMe campaign and donations, she's been able to have her teeth restored, but it cost tens of thousands of dollars because of the beating she took.

In the 15 seconds left, Tyler, did you want to add anything about that?

[Tyler Wisner]

Very quickly, yes. I have not gone to the police about a hate crime, although I have heard stories from my campers who have had to. I have almost had to call the police on their behalf at camp, but because of age regulations, I did not.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Can you send us more information about the camp?

[Tyler Wisner]

Absolutely.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Thank you.

That concludes our panel today. On behalf of the committee, I would like to thank each and every witness. Thank you very much.

Seeing no further questions, the meeting is adjourned.